Cub Scout Single Night Camping Only

[InquisitiveScouter]

19 hours ago, RichardB said:

 

Cub Packs or Webelos / AOL Dens can organize Overnight activities, at council designated locations, with a BALOO trained leader.  This is neither a new nor changed age appropriate requirement.    It does appear that the intent of overnight, included in BALOO training: https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/510-03318-BALOO_web_v2.pdf, on the Cub Scout Page:   https://www.scouting.org/programs/cub-scouts/activities/cub-scout-camping/  has been clarified by this update.  It's been in place decades.   

Councils can run longer Cub Scout camping following the National Camp Accreditation Standards.   But units remain limited to overnight opportunities.  Perhaps this is the source of confusion.  

Please pass some messages to the G2SS writing team:

1.  Hire a good communicator.

2.  Don't write so that you can be understood; write so that you can't be misunderstood.  (Taft)  see @scoutldr post above, for example.

3.  Send your draft policies to someone outside the National organization, preferably to someone that your policies will affect (and who has to comply with them).  Let them read them and then (in a verbal conversation) have them tell you what they read in their own words with some concrete examples of impact to their unit operations.  If they cannot explain it back to you logically and apply your policy correctly, as you intend it, then you have missed the mark.  Try again. 

4.  Never have two different versions of your policies on the official BSA page.  Currently, the download version is still the Feb 2022 version, versus the online version, which is the (now) 2023 version.  Although the caveat about this is on the website, this is unprofessional, and the practice should end.  These two official sources should (must??) always be synchronized.  It is not difficult to update the pdf and post the new version for download.

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter
Added #4

[RichardB]

What would a poll of the readers here indicate if the question was:  When was the last time you took BALOO or even read the instructor syllabus that was posted?

[RichardB]

Oh, also - how can and asked and answered question in 2019 still be under debate?   

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

3 hours ago, RichardB said:

Oh, also - how can and asked and answered question in 2019 still be under debate?   

 

Unsatisfactory.

Several observations:

1.  In reviewing the 2019 posts and your responses, you never answer the question at hand.  You simply post a definition of "overnight" which in no way enlightens the questioning audience. (And you have repeated that here.)

2.  You post a link to an instructor syllabus which is now defunct, therefore invalid to answer the question.

3.  There are 72 instances of the word "overnight" in the currently available BALOO manual (2017 printing, see link).  I reviewed each of them, and there is no clarification that a single night experience is dictated.  Your previous post (at least the info in the link) seems to point to a 2018 version of the syllabus, so I dug up a copy of that too by searching for the pub number with "18" in it the identifier.  (links to both are here:)

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/training/pdf/510-033(17)baloo.pdf

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/510-03318-BALOO_web_v2.pdf

There are 78 instances of "overnighter" in the 2018 syllabus.  Again, nothing limiting it to a single night in the context of any of the instruction.

Appendix MM simply lists a "Sample Pack Camping Schedule" for a one night excursion.  Nowhere is there a prescription that limits packs to this type of schedule.  Could you see how, in a 204-page syllabus, where this is only potentially  intimated on a one-page "sample", and not definitively spelled out anywhere else in the text, that this policy of a "single night camping trip limitation"  is puzzling to anyone? 

BTW, BOTH are posted on the official BSA website.  See notes above relating to multiple versions of policy documents.  Same condemnation applies here.  (Also, when you Google "BALOO Syllabus"  the number one return is the 2017 link.  Nowhere in those search returns is a hit on the 2018 syllabus.  Even when you search "BALOO Syllabus 2018" you get no valid hits. You have to search specifically for "510-03318" to get that version.  So, what do you think the average Cub Leader out there is gonna get in their searches?)

4.  Even your lack of a direct answer in this thread is puzzling.  Are you deliberately trying to be ambiguous?

So, please answer this question directly:

Is it National BSA policy that Cub Scout pack overnight experiences are limited to one single night only?

Edited February 22, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter
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[mrjohns2]

5 hours ago, RichardB said:

When was the last time you took BALOO or even read the instructor syllabus that was posted?

I took it and read it in 2020.

[Eagle94-A1]

If "overnight" only means one night, then why is the definition of a Webelos Scout Overnight defined as "Webelos Scout overnighter

A one- or two-night campout by Webelos Scouts and their parent or guardian."

https://www.scouting.org/resources/los/

 

 

[Eagle94-A1]

On a different note, any idea why Webelos are not allowed to camp at Camporees once again? I know for a fact that policy was rescinded in 2014 becuase it was no long listed in the GTSS for a number of years. The council I am in encouraged troop to have Webelos camp with them as a recruiting tool. And when the policy came back into effect int he past few years, the council  had a camporee already planned, had promotional materials sent and publicized to both Webelos and Troops, and had activities planned for the Webelos to do. Pros  allowed it to happen because it was already planned and no notice that the policy was being reinstated went out to them in advance. So it was the last camporee with Webelos camping.

STUPID DECISION AS IT WAS THE BEST RECRUITING TOOL TO MOTIVATE WEBELOS TO CROSS OVER.

[malraux]

National BSA literature and trainings have multiple instances of overnight including explicit descriptions of overnight including multiple nights. If overnight only means a single night then for example two night backpacking trips are banned as per the g2ss.

[InquisitiveScouter]

10 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Pros  allowed it to happen because it was already planned and no notice that the policy was being reinstated went out to them in advance.

No notice.  So, the councils had no input to the decision-making.  Sound familiar?

[DuctTape]

I think more importantly is "why not?". For the GTSS to have real buy in, all restrictions should have at their core articulable rationale for all restrictions. All restrictions, rules etc... must be written succinctly to not require a 19 page FAQ attempting to explain how to follow them. 

If any appear to be arbitrary (or worse) then those tasked with implementing the gtss will  ignore parts they decide are arbitrary, "up for interpretation", or just plain ridiculous. This makes the gtss ultimately just a list of suggestions. This failure is owned by those who penned it without meaningful buy in from those tasked to implement it. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

6 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

I think more importantly is "why not?". For the GTSS to have real buy in, all restrictions should have at their core articulable rationale for all restrictions. All restrictions, rules etc... must be written succinctly to not require a 19 page FAQ attempting to explain how to follow them. 

If any appear to be arbitrary (or worse) then those tasked with implementing the gtss will  ignore parts they decide are arbitrary, "up for interpretation", or just plain ridiculous. This makes the gtss ultimately just a list of suggestions. This failure is owned by those who penned it without meaningful buy in from those tasked to implement it. 

@DuctTape for National Commissioner!  (It's been a while, so it needed saying again 😛 )

[ShootingSports]

23 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

If "overnight" only means one night, then why is the definition of a Webelos Scout Overnight defined as "Webelos Scout overnighter

A one- or two-night campout by Webelos Scouts and their parent or guardian."

https://www.scouting.org/resources/los/

 

 

Cause you can camp at a Council camp with their provided program covered under NCAP

[ShootingSports]

The difference seems to be in Unit camping on their own and not on council property - limited to one night.  

Council camp with program provided then 2 nights is ok.

 

 

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, ShootingSports said:

The difference seems to be in Unit camping on their own and not on council property - limited to one night.  

Council camp with program provided then 2 nights is ok.

Yes, but why can a Webelos Den do 2 nights on their own, but the entire pack cannot? And why limit packs to one nite, unless it is council run?

 

[seattlecyclone]

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Yes, but why can a Webelos Den do 2 nights on their own, but the entire pack cannot? And why limit packs to one nite, unless it is council run?

Yep, all fine questions. What are the risks inherent to a two-night camping trip that are not present for a one-night excursion? How much extra would it cost to add these additional risks for two-night trips to the insurance policy? Why was the potential benefit to the program considered not worth this cost, and who made that decision?

As a simple parent of a Cub Scout who has been on a few great two-night trips with my kid and has been looking forward to more, it's not at all clear to me how this rule makes Cub Scouting better.