SAFE Scouting

[KublaiKen]

I don't actually believe that BSA 's insurance only covers you if you are following the GSS. That would be like saying your auto insurance only covers you if you are following all the traffic laws.

[Eagle94-A1]

@KublaiKen, Well, BSA's insurance was suppose to cover all the COs and councils from lawsuits. We are seeing how that is working out.

 

[HashTagScouts]

9 minutes ago, KublaiKen said:

I don't actually believe that BSA 's insurance only covers you if you are following the GSS. That would be like saying your auto insurance only covers you if you are following all the traffic laws.

Auto insurance laws vary by state. In some, there is very limited liability that an insurer must cover when it can be established that the operator was not operating the vehicle in accordance to applicable law. If you are driving under the influence of alcohol above the legal limit, see just how much your insurance company is going to willingly cover claims against your policy.

[KublaiKen]

1 minute ago, HashTagScouts said:

Auto insurance laws vary by state. In some, there is very limited liability that an insurer must cover when it can be established that the operator was not operating the vehicle in accordance to applicable law. If you are driving under the influence of alcohol above the legal limit, see just how much your insurance company is going to willingly cover claims against your policy.

That's true, but they do cover you, at least in my state. Perhaps with the array of options, auto is a bad example. Home owner's insurance pays out even if your Christmas tree started the fire.  Health insurance pays for injuries you cause through negligence, once they determine it's your fault and not someone else's (e.g., a workman's comp claim). I'd wager that behind virtually every serious Scout injury is a violation of GSS.

[InquisitiveScouter]

13 minutes ago, KublaiKen said:

I don't actually believe that BSA 's insurance only covers you if you are following the GSS. That would be like saying your auto insurance only covers you if you are following all the traffic laws.

@RichardB, can you shed any light on BSA actions in other instances (without too many specifics, obviously)??

I could see where, if unit supervision allowed Scouts to play Vertical Dodgeball, climb up 20 feet in some trees (tree climbing and Dodgeball being prohibited activities), and one fell to his death, that they could deny coverage and allow civil suits against the adults to proceed without any support.

Anyone have any light to shed on this??

[InquisitiveScouter]

3 minutes ago, KublaiKen said:

That's true, but they do cover you, at least in my state. Perhaps with the array of options, auto is a bad example. Home owner's insurance pays out even if your Christmas tree started the fire.  Health insurance pays for injuries you cause through negligence, once they determine it's your fault and not someone else's (e.g., a workman's comp claim). I'd wager that behind virtually every serious Scout injury is a violation of GSS.

Agreed, and there is a difference between negligence and willful (or criminal) conduct.

[KublaiKen]

4 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Agreed, and there is a difference between negligence and willful (or criminal) conduct.

Yes, and I'm sure that the decision to pay isn't binary, as language saying "they won't cover you" would imply. Note that in @HashTagScoutsexample above, though we don't know if the driver was at fault in the accident, we know he was not only violating Scout policy, but the law itself, and guess what? They got paid.

[HashTagScouts]

1 minute ago, KublaiKen said:

That's true, but they do cover you, at least in my state. Perhaps with the array of options, auto is a bad example. Home owner's insurance pays out even if your Christmas tree started the fire.  Health insurance pays for injuries you cause through negligence, once they determine it's your fault and not someone else's (e.g., a workman's comp claim). I'd wager that behind virtually every serious Scout injury is a violation of GSS.

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss10/

 

Prohibited Activities

The Boy Scouts of America’s general liability policy provides coverage for a bodily injury or property damage claim that is made and arises out of official Scouting activity. The Guide to Safe Scouting contains a listing of prohibited activities. Prohibited activities are not considered official Scouting activities. Volunteers (registered and unregistered), units, chartered organizations, and local councils jeopardize insurance coverage for themselves and their organization by engaging in prohibited activities.

Please do not put yourself at risk.

 

This should be read as CYA. If you are involved in an allowable activity and took reasonable measurers to mitigate risk, accidents do happen. If you participate in a prohibited activity, you run the risk that all bets are off- there are no absolutes, but as someone who's made their career in insurance, this is pretty much language that I would expect attorneys would say should be used to not deny all responsibility, but also not to accept all responsibility.

[KublaiKen]

Yep, CYA exactly. and it's good advice. But saying it doesn't absolve them of legal or fiscal responsibility, even if it could potentially mitigate it.

As I said to begin with, I don't actually believe that BSA 's insurance only covers you if you are following the GSS. I still don't.

[InquisitiveScouter]

8 minutes ago, KublaiKen said:

Yes, and I'm sure that the decision to pay isn't binary, as language saying "they won't cover you" would imply. Note that in @HashTagScoutsexample above, though we don't know if the driver was at fault in the accident, we know he was not only violating Scout policy, but the law itself, and guess what? They got paid.

Did they pay just to make this go away, and not tarnish the image of BSA??

And maybe the offending driver had nothing really for anyone to go after, so the lawyers went for the deepest pockets and hoped for this settlement regime...  again, just to make it go away...

Guessing and smh...

 

[5thGenTexan]

22 minutes ago, KublaiKen said:

 I'd wager that behind virtually every serious Scout injury is a violation of GSS.

I dont know.  At Webelos Woods last November I was carrying a dutch oven back to the trailer in the dark.  I tripped over one of those really big rocks that are supposed to keep you from driving into the camp site.  I didn't just kind of trip either...  I went down, the dutch oven ended up under the middle of the trailer.  My lower abdomen was sore for two months, I had a spot on the side of my chest on the right side that hurt just as long.  My knees are just down getting to the point where they don't feel swollen all the time and dont hurt when I stand up.  So... 3 months to recover from that.  I was told I should have filled out an accident report while still in camp, but I didn't.  I don't think the GTSS prohibits doing something stupid in the dark, but things do happen.  I guess if I had done the paperwork and tried to force the issue if my condition didn't improve I could have give the BSA insurance a go.

[KublaiKen]

13 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Did they pay just to make this go away, and not tarnish the image of BSA??

And maybe the offending driver had nothing really for anyone to go after, so the lawyers went for the deepest pockets and hoped for this settlement regime...  again, just to make it go away...

Guessing and smh...

 

I don't know. I only know in the single instance in this thread where we know what happened, the plaintiff got paid despite Scouting policies being violated, and even the law. A single data point doesn't prove the case, but clearly the insurer saw liability or exposure of some kind (maybe just PR? We don't know.) and paid to make it go away.

I get it. I am the only one who doesn't believe that the insurance won't cover you if you are violating the GSS. I would say that your belief is healthy and is probably a good indicator that you will follow the GSS. I am sure that was a good part of BSA's intention in using their language. Does my belief make me less likely to follow it? Thus far, no.

[InquisitiveScouter]

Just now, 5thGenTexan said:

I dont know.  At Webelos Woods last November I was carrying a dutch oven back to the trailer in the dark.  I tripped over one of those really big rocks that are supposed to keep you from driving into the camp site.  I didn't just kind of trip either...  I went down, the dutch oven ended up under the middle of the trailer.  My lower abdomen was sore for two months, I had a spot on the side of my chest on the right side that hurt just as long.  My knees are just down getting to the point where they don't feel swollen all the time and dont hurt when I stand up.  So... 3 months to recover from that.  I was told I should have filled out an accident report while still in camp, but I didn't.  I don't think the GTSS prohibits doing something stupid in the dark, but things do happen.  I guess if I had done the paperwork and tried to force the issue if my condition didn't improve I could have give the BSA insurance a go.

You still can, but it will only cover your co-pays.

And that is Accident and Sickness coverage... that's a different policy than General Liability.

Also, did you know??  If you kick the bucket (heart failure) within 90 days of participating in a BSA event, your survivors can claim a $10K benefit?

*Includes loss of life resulting from Heart Failure within 90 days from the date participating in an approved Boy Scouts or Learning for Life (if purchased) activity: ———————————– ■ Life* $10,000

Your council plan might vary... 

HSR Brochure.pdf

[InquisitiveScouter]

3 minutes ago, KublaiKen said:

I don't know. I only know in the single instance in this thread where we know what happened, the plaintiff got paid despite Scouting policies being violated, and even the law. A single data point doesn't prove the case, but clearly the insurer saw liability or exposure of some kind (maybe just PR? We don't know.) and paid to make it go away.

I get it. I am the only one who doesn't believe that the insurance won't cover you if you are violating the GSS. I would say that your belief is healthy and is probably a good indicator that you will follow the GSS. I am sure that was a good part of BSA's intention in using their language. Does my belief make me less likely to follow it? Thus far, no.

I follow it religiously, to protect Scouts and Scouters, and to protect my family assets and security (in that order).

[KublaiKen]

9 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I dont know.  At Webelos Woods last November I was carrying a dutch oven back to the trailer in the dark.  I tripped over one of those really big rocks that are supposed to keep you from driving into the camp site.  I didn't just kind of trip either...  I went down, the dutch oven ended up under the middle of the trailer.  My lower abdomen was sore for two months, I had a spot on the side of my chest on the right side that hurt just as long.  My knees are just down getting to the point where they don't feel swollen all the time and dont hurt when I stand up.  So... 3 months to recover from that.  I was told I should have filled out an accident report while still in camp, but I didn't.  I don't think the GTSS prohibits doing something stupid in the dark, but things do happen.  I guess if I had done the paperwork and tried to force the issue if my condition didn't improve I could have give the BSA insurance a go.

Wow, sorry about the spill, and the long recovery. I hope you're fully at it soon.

Yes, there are certainly exceptions, and perhaps instead of "virtually every" I should have said something like "most" so you don't feel singled out. 🙂