SAFE Scouting

[RichardB]

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2023/02/14/lets-take-a-moment-to-watch-the-oregon-trail-councils-video-on-scouting-safely/

Thoughts on the council initiative to utilize the SAFE Checklist.  https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/safe/

 

[qwazse]

One small suggestion … if it’s at all that important, a scouter shouldn’t have to click through and advance the video to find out what s.a.f.e. stands for.

It’s also not clear how the checklist would have addressed the incident that inspired it. I would love its implementation to forestall death. But how does this do what the sweet 16 does not?

[InquisitiveScouter]

"... BSA has liability insurance to protect its volunteers, but compliance with BSA safety guidelines is required for that insurance to be available." (2:30 in the video)

I really think BSA should clearly elaborate on what this means for volunteers who are not in compliance with BSA safety guidelines.

And the video ought to be redone for a myriad of reasons, but one of the biggest is at the end...

Way to go shooting a safety video, and then putting that final scene in...

"Appropriate personal protective equipment is required for all activities. This includes the recommended use of helmets for all participants engaged in winter sports, such as sledding and riding other sliding devices."

LOL

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter
put in time of quote

[jcousino]

Here is my log for this fire BSA will never put out some thing that could be viewed as negative. (but True) do not scare the volunteers off

If most volunteers  and charter partners  where told that if a event occurs and BSA insurance determines that you where not following BSA  safety rules your on your own , remember what you signed in that charter agreement (Personal Defense and liability costs in the 9 figures for wrongful death of an 12 year old.) No rational person would knowingly take that on. Even more so in the light of BSA past insurance issues,

Love the study of outdoor risk management from my little formal training Most Troop and District level events are scary. Now with  NCAP (short term) standards most activities that i am aware of would have several safety gaps. Then at the troop level even who,s watching

Just an easy example do you know if the person driving others youths to camp  even has a valid drivers licensee . Have you checked?

Fr. John

[InquisitiveScouter]

15 minutes ago, jcousino said:

Here is my log for this fire BSA will never put out some thing that could be viewed as negative. (but True) do not scare the volunteers off

If most volunteers  and charter partners  where told that if a event occurs and BSA insurance determines that you where not following BSA  safety rules your on your own , remember what you signed in that charter agreement (Personal Defense and liability costs in the 9 figures for wrongful death of an 12 year old.) No rational person would knowingly take that on. Even more so in the light of BSA past insurance issues,

Love the study of outdoor risk management from my little formal training Most Troop and District level events are scary. Now with  NCAP (short term) standards most activities that i am aware of would have several safety gaps. Then at the troop level even who,s watching

Just an easy example do you know if the person driving others youths to camp  even has a valid drivers licensee . Have you checked?

Fr. John

Fr. John,

Agreed, but BSA is literally keeping their volunteers in the dark as to their own risk.  Could this be on purpose?

Instead of "If you ignore our recommendation from the Guide to Safe Scouting, you open yourself to financial ruin through lawsuits!" ... I'd turn it to the positive side:

Hey volunteers, we carry liability insurance to protect your Scouting activities!  That, along with the federal law puts a strong team in your corner should an accident occur.

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title42/chapter139&edition=prelim

You can help keep your Scouts and yourself safe by strictly adhering to all of our direction in the Guide to Safe Scouting 😛

 

 

[HashTagScouts]

BSA is trying not to scare the daylights out of folks, but, essentially if you don't follow BSA guidelines, your unit may very well find themselves on the liability hook. A good friend of mine is an attorney, and represented a family that was involved in a lawsuit with a neighboring Council. The Unit Leader and Chartered Organization were also named in the suit. Ironically, it was a case that involved exactly what Fr. John alludes to. The unit had an outing in NH, had a parent that was not a registered adult leader attending and transporting his son and two other scouts. Vehicle got into a car accident on their return leg, and one of the scouts he was transporting had some pretty significant injuries (he was seated on the side that took the impact from the other vehicle). Turns out the parent had a suspended driver's license. Council argued that they were not liable as the unit did not follow BSA policies. Council ended up settling for low amount (situation that it can be cheaper to give a few thousand to settle than pay your attorneys thousands and suffer the PR ding). 

[InquisitiveScouter]

 

23 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

BSA is trying not to scare the daylights out of folks, but, essentially if you don't follow BSA guidelines, your unit may very well find themselves on the liability hook. A good friend of mine is an attorney, and represented a family that was involved in a lawsuit with a neighboring Council. The Unit Leader and Chartered Organization were also named in the suit. Ironically, it was a case that involved exactly what Fr. John alludes to. The unit had an outing in NH, had a parent that was not a registered adult leader attending and transporting his son and two other scouts. Vehicle got into a car accident on their return leg, and one of the scouts he was transporting had some pretty significant injuries (he was seated on the side that took the impact from the other vehicle). Turns out the parent had a suspended driver's license. Council argued that they were not liable as the unit did not follow BSA policies. Council ended up settling for low amount (situation that it can be cheaper to give a few thousand to settle than pay your attorneys thousands and suffer the PR ding). 

Here's the real question:  What happens to a BSA volunteer, if they act out of accordance with BSA guidelines???

Doesn't the policy cover those cases?  Read the verbiage from G2SS:

"This coverage provides primary general liability coverage for registered adults of the Boy Scouts of America who serve in a volunteer or professional capacity concerning claims arising out of an official Scouting activity, which is defined in the insurance policy as consistent with the values, Charter and Bylaws, Rules and Regulations, operations manuals, and applicable literature of the Boy Scouts of America. This coverage responds to allegations of negligent actions by third parties that result in personal injury or property damage claims that are made and protects Scouting units and chartered organizations on a primary basis."

It even seems to imply that you will be defended (except in cases of intentional or criminal acts.):  "The general liability policy does not provide indemnification or defense coverage to those individuals who commit intentional and criminal acts. The Boy Scouts of America does not have an insurance policy that provides defense for situations involving allegations of intentional and criminal acts."

Here's some other good gouge I found.

https://montanabsa.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/BSA-Insurance.pdf

Kudos to Montana Council for being a little more forthright:

"The Guide to Safe Scouting contains a listing of unauthorized and restricted activities. Unauthorized activities are not considered official Scouting activities. Volunteers (registered and unregistered), units, chartered organizations, and local councils are jeopardizing insurance coverage for themselves and their organization by engaging in unauthorized activities."

EDIT:  Just found that last blurb in the G2SS as well, so my kudos to Montana Council are downgraded a bit 😛  

Edited February 16, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[InquisitiveScouter]

25 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

BSA is trying not to scare the daylights out of folks, but, essentially if you don't follow BSA guidelines, your unit may very well find themselves on the liability hook. A good friend of mine is an attorney, and represented a family that was involved in a lawsuit with a neighboring Council. The Unit Leader and Chartered Organization were also named in the suit. Ironically, it was a case that involved exactly what Fr. John alludes to. The unit had an outing in NH, had a parent that was not a registered adult leader attending and transporting his son and two other scouts. Vehicle got into a car accident on their return leg, and one of the scouts he was transporting had some pretty significant injuries (he was seated on the side that took the impact from the other vehicle). Turns out the parent had a suspended driver's license. Council argued that they were not liable as the unit did not follow BSA policies. Council ended up settling for low amount (situation that it can be cheaper to give a few thousand to settle than pay your attorneys thousands and suffer the PR ding). 

Scouter Code of Conduct:

"When transporting youth, I will obey all laws, comply with Youth Protection guidelines, and follow safe driving practices."

Maybe another reason BSA wants all adults to be registered... 

Remember old Tour Permits, where you had to record valid driver's license and insurance info??

https://www.boyscouttrail.com/docs/formlocaltourpermit.pdf

[InquisitiveScouter]

28 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

BSA is trying not to scare the daylights out of folks

A forthright and mature discussion or clarification about behavior, risk, and consequences is always appropriate.

I had these many times with troops at my Commander's Calls.  Funny, how we had less disciplinary actions than other units in the command...

Of course, a very different situation, as I had many other disciplinary tools at my disposal (UCMJ, pay, leave, promotions, assignments, deployments, etc.), but there are some similarities in principles... 

[HashTagScouts]

5 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Scouter Code of Conduct:

"When transporting youth, I will obey all laws, comply with Youth Protection guidelines, and follow safe driving practices."

Maybe another reason BSA wants all adults to be registered... 

Remember old Tour Permits, where you had to record valid driver's license and insurance info??

https://www.boyscouttrail.com/docs/formlocaltourpermit.pdf

I still think it is a good idea for units to operate in the same manner as when the tour permits were required. 

[HashTagScouts]

1 minute ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

A forthright and mature discussion or clarification about behavior, risk, and consequences is always appropriate.

I had these many times with troops at my Commander's Calls.  Funny, how we had less disciplinary actions than other units in the command...

Of course, a very different situation, as I had many other disciplinary tools at my disposal (UCMJ, pay, leave, promotions, assignments, deployments, etc.), but there are some similarities in principles... 

100% agree. The issue of negligence is at the heart of many liability cases that end up in the legal system. I think about the case against McDonalds where a person burned themselves on coffee that spilled on them when they had to stop short. Can't imagine that McDonalds could be liable on how people drive and have an expectation someone was going to spill coffee on themselves (then again, I also readily recognize that coffee is hot). 

[jcousino]

The points of tour permits were transferred to the unit level when Councils did not want the liability. While there is not a council level form the checked item are now still required to be done at the unit level. Do you have records of current drivers licenses and auto insurance? Leader training, what about non-scouter leaders on trips?

Fr. John

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by jcousino

[InquisitiveScouter]

8 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

100% agree. The issue of negligence is at the heart of many liability cases that end up in the legal system. I think about the case against McDonalds where a person burned themselves on coffee that spilled on them when they had to stop short. Can't imagine that McDonalds could be liable on how people drive and have an expectation someone was going to spill coffee on themselves (then again, I also readily recognize that coffee is hot). 

Recommend you read up on that case.  She was not driving at the time, and was also found 20% culpable in the incident, which reduced the damages awarded.

https://www.caoc.org/?pg=facts

[InquisitiveScouter]

5 minutes ago, jcousino said:

The points of tour permits were transferred to the unit level when Councils did not want the liability. While there is not a council level form the checked item are now still required to be done at the unit level. Do you have records of current diver licenses and auto insurance? Leader training, non-scouter leaders on trips?

Fr. John

 

Although I concur with the practice of checking for this, could you please point out in the literature where it says a unit is required to do this?

There is a SAFE checklist to help with this...

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/680-696(21)-SAFE-Transportation-Checklist-FPO3-5172021.pdf

But, other than you, who else is actually running this checklist?

 

[DuctTape]

My #1 gripe is using the term "leader" vs Scouter or "Adult Supervision".

 

The scouts should be leading. The adult Scouters are there for supervision and safety NOT to lead. (Except for cubs).

 

And YES this matters.