I This a New Trend, Awarding Eagle Before National Approval?

[Eagle94-A1]

So I have been seeing a lot of posts on FB with people passing their Eagle Board of Review, and having Eagle neckerchiefs, slides, and in a few cases medals being worn immediately after the EBOR.  Now I am seeing folks either planning their Eagle Court of Honor before their paperwork comes back from National (5 cases), and in the instances last night before their Eagle BOR. Yep, sat on 3 EBORs and their joint ECOH is this Sunday.  In all the cases, the SM was able to purchase the presentation kits. One SM  purchased "replacement" presentation kits because he is an Eagle, and used his credentials to get them.  But the other SM was travelling, saw a scout shop ( I assume council owned as National Scout shops require verification) and got the 3 kits last month.

So is this the new trend, or something just in my area?

Edited February 10, 2023 by Eagle94-A1

[Eagle1993]

I'm not sure how other Troops handle this but we make it clear that nothing is official until we hear from National.  We do not have anyone wear the patch until we have the kit from National.  

Now, in all my years, I haven't had a case where National rejected the Eagle app but it can happen.

[InquisitiveScouter]

23 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

So I have been seeing a lot of posts on FB with people passing their Eagle Board of Review, and having Eagle neckerchiefs, slides, and in a few cases medals being worn immediately after the EBOR.  Now I am seeing folks either planning their Eagle Court of Honor before their paperwork comes back from National (5 cases), and in the instances last night before their Eagle BOR. Yep, sat on 3 EBORs and their joint ECOH is this Sunday.  In all the cases, the SM was able to purchase the presentation kits. One SM  purchased "replacement" presentation kits because he is an Eagle, and used his credentials to get them.  But the other SM was travelling, saw a scout shop ( I assume council owned as National Scout shops require verification) and got the 3 kits last month.

So is this the new trend, or something just in my area?

Nothing new around here...

The mindset in most units here is that, after the EBoR, the chances of National turning it down is near zero.  And, if they did, there'd be appeals and corrections until the Scout received the award.  So they charge forward, because (I think that they think) waiting takes the joy out of the occasion.

We recognize the achievement in six ways!

1.  When a Scout is Eagle Scout Service Project complete, we make a big deal out of it at a Troop meeting.

2.  When a Scout is "Merit Badge Complete", we make a big deal out of it at a Troop meeting.

3.  In our Troop, we have a big Trail to Eagle board with each giant rank patch on it.  Under each rank are all the nametags of all the Scouts in the unit with that rank.

For our new Scouts, we put their nametag on the board upside down under Scout rank when they join.  When they make Scout rank, they turn it right side up.  At each rank announcement, the Scouts chant "Change the Board!" and the Scout earning his rank comes forward (with a huge smile!!) to receive his patch and move his nametag to the next rank.

When a Scout submits his application for Eagle Scout, we have him Change the Board! and move his nametag under Eagle Scout, but upside down!

4.  After his Eagle BoR is complete, we have him Change the Board! and turn his name right side up, while explaining that he is not yet an Eagle Scout in the eyes of the National Council, as we are awaiting the paperwork processing.

5.  Once his credentials come back, we announce that at the Troop meeting and present his Eagle rank patch (yes, with "Insta-palms"), and explain it is official, he can wear it on his uniform, and that now we get to help him plan for his Eagle Court of Honor.  There is much rejoicing!

6.  The Eagle Court of Honor.

After Eagle BoR, I tell parents the "rules," but also tell them the process normally takes between four and six weeks to get credentials back.  I have seen them return as fast as two weeks, and as slow as ten weeks.  It depends on the workload at National.  I advise them they should pencil in a date no earlier than six weeks from EBoR for Eagle Court of Honor.

We also give them options.  You can have an event here at our CoR facility for free.  If you want some other arrangement, then you will have to make the financial arrangements for that, but you take a risk by putting money down to reserve something without having credentials back.  The Troop does not pay for Eagle CoH decorations or refreshments.  (Some people want a "big wedding."  Others are happy with having it as a part of our normal quarterly Troop Court of Honor.  It all depends on the Scout's (and his mother's) wishes.  (Yes, I said that 😜 )

I tell them we can not present an Eagle patch or medal until we receive the credentials back from National. 

At the ECoH, we present the Eagle Kit, an Eagle Scout Neckerchief, and Eagle Scout Slide. (all gifts from the Troop)  We used to purchase a five year membership in NESA for them, but NESA upped the cost from $35 to $100.  No thanks...

If a Scout wishes to present more than one Mentor Pin, they have to purchase them...  we help with arranging that, if needed.

In handling Eagle this way, our unit is the exception around here.

And yes, our Scout shop will sell you every Eagle kit they have in stock, no questions asked...

They never check for any advancement report or other record before selling Merit Badges or Ranks.  I used to bring in the printed report from Scoutbook, but eventually got the question from them of "why bother?" 

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

I'm not sure how other Troops handle this but we make it clear that nothing is official until we hear from National.  We do not have anyone wear the patch until we have the kit from National.  

Now, in all my years, I haven't had a case where National rejected the Eagle app but it can happen.

I have seen it, and generally it was a screw up on the Council  getting dates wrong. Probably doesn't happen very often now with everything recorded electronically, but 20 years ago we asked Council for a copy of all the scout's records and found they got some of the records wrong on 30% of our scouts. Most of the mistakes were not a big deal, but once in a while the got the rank dates wrong. 

Barry

[nolesrule]

Agree with everything you wrote, @InquisitiveScouter

We've seen the boys troop change the rank board immediately after their EBOR (they often do them on the night or troop meets or when our troop committee meets. My daughter found that anticlimactic because the only people there to see it are the parents and the members of the board. And then on the next troop meeting night it's just there.

So she requested her Eagle BOR be held on a meeting night so the board change would be both immediate and celebrated with the entire troop. When it happened (last week) it was so much more exciting for everyone.

And now we wait for the credentials, although a Scoutmaster in another unit gifted her the patch, she's properly going to wait until it's official.

Our scout shop requires proof of advancement in order to purchase rank patches, but I think that's the only thing they limit.

Edited February 10, 2023 by nolesrule

[Armymutt]

42 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

... NESA upped the cost from $35 to $100.  No thanks...

I like the idea of the board.  I actually got excited about the Change the board! part.  The quoted portion is where I about choked.  At $35, it was worth giving as a give for 5 years.  I can't believe the silver border square knot is now $500!  It can't cost that much to operate NESA.  Maybe they should shrink down the scholarships.  You already have to be a NESA member to apply.  If you can afford to spend $100 on a 50-year membership, you probably aren't hurting for money.

[fred8033]

4 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

So is this the new trend, or something just in my area?

The council vetting has continued to improve.  At this point, I'm not sure national even does a review beyond what is done at the council level.  In fact, is the council level check done by a registrar, who is a national employee and makes it effectively a national check?  If a scout is cleared for an EBOR, pretty much all the national checks have been done.  There is very, very, very little that would block the scout.

Edited February 10, 2023 by fred8033

[InquisitiveScouter]

2 hours ago, fred8033 said:

The council vetting has continued to improve.  At this point, I'm not sure national even does a review beyond what is done at the council level.  In fact, is the council level check done by a registrar, who is a national employee and makes it effectively a national check?  If a scout is cleared for an EBOR, pretty much all the national checks have been done.  There is very, very, very little that would block the scout.

I would agree.  I think we have reached the time when, as soon as an EBoR is done, that Scout is an Eagle Scout.

What, if anything is preventing us from making this so?  Or, what would it take to get us there?  Only the stroke of a pen (or a few strokes on a keyboard), I think...

I would love to see a a statistic on the number of Eagle applications National has returned with questions or errors.  They have to have this data.

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[Eagle_Chris]

We had an Eagle application sent back from National because the Scout had a merit badge earned before their BSA join date (when he was a AOL/Cub Scout).

His parents explained a SM/ASM told them it was OK (it was not).  We had to invalidate the merit badge and resubmit his application.

Luckily he had more than the minimum #, as he was 18.

I would recommend waiting to ensure everything is 100%.

[InquisitiveScouter]

On 2/10/2023 at 7:59 PM, Eagle_Chris said:

We had an Eagle application sent back from National because the Scout had a merit badge earned before their BSA join date (when he was a AOL/Cub Scout).

His parents explained a SM/ASM told them it was OK (it was not).  We had to invalidate the merit badge and resubmit his application.

Luckily he had more than the minimum #, as he was 18.

I would recommend waiting to ensure everything is 100%.

Your registrar should have caught that!  We had a situation like that when I first came to this Troop.  Luckily, based on previous experience with the same issue (caught by the registrar the previous council), I found it and was able to help correct.  Here's one way a situation like that happens (it's what happened here...):

- Scout joined Troop in June, just as school was getting out.  Troop leader had the parent-signed application, but did not submit it to council (sat on it.) Scout went on outings and to Summer Camp with the Troop (where he earned merit badges).  Troop leader did not sign and submit application to council until after the summer was over (in September).  Registrar entered Date Joined Scouting as in September.  Also in September, they submitted an Advancement Report from Summer Camp, with Scout's name and badges.  Registrar entered advancement as recorded on the form.  I believe there were no internal checks in the software to flag these dates.  (The problem to identify was that a Scout had earned advancement before his joining date... that's a no-no.)   Troop was using TroopMaster at the time.  After that, Troop transitioned to Scoutbook, and began to use system generated-forms with all dates automatically input.  (Scoutbook also does not flag these kinds of errors.)  We generated this Scout's Eagle Application, and, as I was reviewing it with him, I saw the error.  To correct, we had the registrar pull his original application and correct his Joined Date to the date his parent signed the application. Then we generated a new Eagle Application with the corrected dates.  Our Registrar told me she could do this because there was "intent to join" at that June date (as per parent signature), and they were not going to hold up the Scout because an adult leader sat on an application.  (If parent and leader signature dates had both been September, the Scout would not have been "eligible" to earn the badges at camp.)

Those controls could be programmed into Scoutbook, I think.  Or into the form itself  (but I don't know that much about pdfs and whether internal checks like that can be coded into them.)

Much of the Registrar's job has been automated.  And I believe much more is in the works to be automated. This will help with council consolidations, as members will not have to travel to the council office to file paperwork.

One thing is filing Eagle Applications electronically...  I see no reason (other than coding) that we could not do logic checks and electronic signatures on a form in Scoutbook and have it automatically submitted to "National Registrar" after EBoR approval.

Edited February 13, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[BetterWithCheddar]

I'm afraid to ask (because I think I know the answer), but what's the rush?

To provide immediate recognition, a Troop could announce: "We're pleased to share that so-and-so completed their EBOR. We look forward to honoring them at a future date once their application has been approved by the National Office."

Gotta beef up those scholarship apps ASAP and get some Facebook likes, I suppose (or else it's like it didn't even happen 🙂).