Cub Scout Changes

[Eagle94-A1]

57 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

Year-over-year, RT has had the January topic as the "Webelos transition". Not the right headline, with AoL being a rank, so right there the whole topic goes off the rails. Also spends way too much time talking about the more "physical" attributes like the crossover ceremony, rather than hammering home to the Packs that if they haven't been direct to parents that there is an actual difference between Cubs and Scouts BSA, they've missed the boat. I've gone hoarse trying to explain this to the Cub RT commissioner. 

 

Sadly the folks running the Cub Scout Program nationally have little to no real life experience. I am told BSA use "experts" to write curriculums, programming etc.  And from reading training materials, I can believe it.

[InquisitiveScouter]

14 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

Sadly the folks running the Cub Scout Program nationally have little to no real life experience. I am told BSA use "experts" to write curriculums, programming etc.  And from reading training materials, I can believe it.

And, if you are paying someone to create a good program, do you think they are going to come back to you and say, "The solution is less programming, and and more emphasis on unstructured fun in the outdoors!" ???

https://childmind.org/article/why-kids-need-to-spend-time-in-nature/

[sierracharliescouter]

On 1/31/2023 at 5:48 AM, InquisitiveScouter said:

And, if you are paying someone to create a good program, do you think they are going to come back to you and say, "The solution is less programming, and and more emphasis on unstructured fun in the outdoors!" ???

https://childmind.org/article/why-kids-need-to-spend-time-in-nature/

It's like asking a lawyer to review a risk management policy. Your chance of getting something less restrictive is less than zero.

[Momleader]

IF they were to eliminate Lion/Tigers - hopefully there would be some sort of phase out for those already in packs this year.  If they were to shorten the commitment for  them to a once a month emerging/outing I would hope they would adjust the fees accordingly,

The new adventure based model is very much like school curriculum  and kinda of boring for a lot of the kiddos

[Eagle1993]

So ... I'm not aware of all of the changes.  Some that may be coming ...

• Every rank will switch to 6 required adventures and 2 electives.  It is not clear if this is the correct #s; however, what was made clear is every rank will have the identical # of required & elective adventures.
• Bobcat is no longer a rank, it will be an adventure that must be earned for every rank
• Webelos & AOL will be completely separate.  Webelos will go to 1 year.  AOL will be full focused on bridging to scouts BSA and much more focus will be on linking AOL scouts to a Scouts BSA Troop.
• If a scout earns AOL, when they cross over to Scouts BSA, they automatically earn Scout rank.

I understand there are/could be other changes coming, but I have not heard of any changes to how the Pack functions or Lions/Tigers

The 1st change listed in meh to me.  I don't see much of an impact. 

The 2nd change ... not a bad idea to me.  Scouts should go through the bobcat requirements frequently.  Perhaps the uniform changes where Lions, Tigers, Wolves and Bears each have their own square.

The 3rd change ... if implemented well could be a win.  It should be operating this way already, but I expect it could help some Packs/Dens realize the importance of the this transition vs having it be 1 adventure.

The 4th change ... I'm a big fan of this one.  Earn AOL you should have done everything required for Scout Rank anyway and it gets them moving in Scouts BSA rank advancement.

Thoughts on these possible changes (still just a rumor).  Personally ... I don't think it is enough; however, I would like to learn more about the AOL change which could have a fairly significant impact.

[Eagle94-A1]

My Comments in RED

19 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

So ... I'm not aware of all of the changes.  Some that may be coming ...

• Every rank will switch to 6 required adventures and 2 electives.  It is not clear if this is the correct #s; however, what was made clear is every rank will have the identical # of required & elective adventures.

I hope only up to AOL. IHMO trying to cram 8 adventures before Crossover could be a challenge and lead to pencilwhipping.

 

19 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

• Bobcat is no longer a rank, it will be an adventure that must be earned for every rank

I believe that was how it was prior to some time in the 1970s. I know my brothers had Bobcat pins

 

19 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

• Webelos & AOL will be completely separate.  Webelos will go to 1 year.  AOL will be full focused on bridging to scouts BSA and much more focus will be on linking AOL scouts to a Scouts BSA Troop.

DANGER WILL ROBINSON DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This will set us back 30+ years.  Prior to 1989, Webelos and AOL was 9-12 months total. Studies showed that 9-12 months was not enough time to transition, hence the reason Webelos became am 18-24 month program, to better transition to Scouts.

THIS WILL REALLY SCREW UP THE TRANSITION PROCESS!

If national really wants to fix the problem,  make Scouting Adventure required for Webelos, and actually force Webelos Dens to begin the transition process.

But hey, what do I know. I just been around 40 years, saw when this change occurred, and how much better new Scouts were overall. Yeah, we did have some challenges. But not like today.  And Live, in person training needs to happen to emphasize the importance of the transition.

 

19 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

• If a scout earns AOL, when they cross over to Scouts BSA, they automatically earn Scout rank.

That is how it was in the mid 1980s. I remember just after Crossing Over, going to my first meeting and getting my Scout signed off and starting my tenure for Tenderfoot.

19 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

I understand there are/could be other changes coming, but I have not heard of any changes to how the Pack functions or Lions/Tigers

The 1st change listed in meh to me.  I don't see much of an impact. 

The 2nd change ... not a bad idea to me.  Scouts should go through the bobcat requirements frequently.  Perhaps the uniform changes where Lions, Tigers, Wolves and Bears each have their own square.

The 3rd change ... if implemented well could be a win.  It should be operating this way already, but I expect it could help some Packs/Dens realize the importance of the this transition vs having it be 1 adventure.

The 4th change ... I'm a big fan of this one.  Earn AOL you should have done everything required for Scout Rank anyway and it gets them moving in Scouts BSA rank advancement.

Thoughts on these possible changes (still just a rumor).  Personally ... I don't think it is enough; however, I would like to learn more about the AOL change which could have a fairly significant impact.

 

[Eagle1993]

2 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

My Comments in RED

I hope only up to AOL. IHMO trying to cram 8 adventures before Crossover could be a challenge and lead to pencilwhipping.

 

I believe that was how it was prior to some time in the 1970s. I know my brothers had Bobcat pins

 

DANGER WILL ROBINSON DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This will set us back 30+ years.  Prior to 1989, Webelos and AOL was 9-12 months total. Studies showed that 9-12 months was not enough time to transition, hence the reason Webelos became am 18-24 month program, to better transition to Scouts.

THIS WILL REALLY SCREW UP THE TRANSITION PROCESS!

If national really wants to fix the problem,  make Scouting Adventure required for Webelos, and actually force Webelos Dens to begin the transition process.

But hey, what do I know. I just been around 40 years, saw when this change occurred, and how much better new Scouts were overall. Yeah, we did have some challenges. But not like today.  And Live, in person training needs to happen to emphasize the importance of the transition.

 

That is how it was in the mid 1980s. I remember just after Crossing Over, going to my first meeting and getting my Scout signed off and starting my tenure for Tenderfoot.

 

It will be interesting to see what this change really means.  I like your idea ... if 4th graders get a taste of Scouts BSA by having to earn scouting adventure and then AOL is really heavily focused on transitioning into Scouts BSA.  If Webelos is just 1 more year of pure Cub Scouts and AOL is the 1st time anyone starts really preparing for transition to Scouts BSA ... the truth is that AOL transfer in Feb - May ... so that would mean only 6-8 months.

Now, to be fair, I see many packs not spend much time on transition to Scouts BSA until late in 5th grade.  So, on the ground, pushing AOL scouts earlier (in September) may actually give them more time to transition vs what many packs/Troops see today.

[KublaiKen]

While AOL and Scout appear identical, there is actually a universe between them. They may be doing the exact same things, but the first time it was signed off by a grown-up and the second time by another Scout. I don't think that step should be diminished or lost, because it probably really helps the new Scout understand the seismic shift. And while I know the SMC is by no means contingent upon advancement, I do like that one is required right out of the gate. Not necessary, but then maybe it is for some.

[Eagle1993]

1 minute ago, KublaiKen said:

While AOL and Scout appear identical, there is actually a universe between them. They may be doing the exact same things, but the first time it was signed off by a grown-up and the second time by another Scout. I don't think that step should be diminished or lost, because it probably really helps the new Scout understand the seismic shift. And while I know the SMC is by no means contingent upon advancement, I do like that one is required right out of the gate. Not necessary, but then maybe it is for some.

I wouldn't mind requiring SMC at the transition, but don't make them jump through the same hoops.  There is not a single scout requirement that expands beyond what they did as AOL (or could have done).   Have them start immediately focusing on Tenderfoot vs redoing AOL. They can see the benefits of having another scout sign off on requirements while working on Tenderfoot.  I personally see Scout as a momentum killer and a relatively boring introduction into Scouts BSA for someone who earned AOL.

[KublaiKen]

When did it switch to SMC, anyway? In olden times it was a Personal Growth Agreement Conference.

[DannyG]

9 minutes ago, KublaiKen said:

While AOL and Scout appear identical, there is actually a universe between them. They may be doing the exact same things, but the first time it was signed off by a grown-up and the second time by another Scout. I don't think that step should be diminished or lost, because it probably really helps the new Scout understand the seismic shift. And while I know the SMC is by no means contingent upon advancement, I do like that one is required right out of the gate. Not necessary, but then maybe it is for some.

Totally agree. The biggest difference is in Cubs is the requirement for achievement is "Do Your Best". It doesn't mean you can actually tie a taut-line hitch; it means your tried and gave it your best shot. In order to fulfill the requirement for Scout rank, you have to show you have the ability to tie the knot. There is value in redundancy as these are basic skills every scout should practice over again and need to know.

Also Scouts can wear the AOL patch on their uniform with the Scout rank. If a scout who earns AOL is automatically Scout rank, wouldn't that mean the patches are redundant?

[Eagle1993]

25 minutes ago, DannyG said:

It doesn't mean you can actually tie a taut-line hitch; it means your tried and gave it your best shot. In order to fulfill the requirement for Scout rank, you have to show you have the ability to tie the knot.

AOL, Scout & Tenderfoot all have the same knot requirements.   To me, it makes more sense to have a new scout who earned AOL work immediately on the Tenderfoot version than simply repeating it for Scout rank and then again for Tenderfoot.

They added Scout rank (requirements) in 2016.  I think the rank makes sense for someone brand new to scouting.  Awarding an AOL scout with Scout rank is an indication they likely already know the very basics of being a scout.  Similar to the Military having Eagle scouts start at E-3.

[Eagle94-A1]

2 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

It will be interesting to see what this change really means.  I like your idea ... if 4th graders get a taste of Scouts BSA by having to earn scouting adventure and then AOL is really heavily focused on transitioning into Scouts BSA.  If Webelos is just 1 more year of pure Cub Scouts and AOL is the 1st time anyone starts really preparing for transition to Scouts BSA ... the truth is that AOL transfer in Feb - May ... so that would mean only 6-8 months.

Now, to be fair, I see many packs not spend much time on transition to Scouts BSA until late in 5th grade.  So, on the ground, pushing AOL scouts earlier (in September) may actually give them more time to transition vs what many packs/Troops see today.

That's the main problem with the current training and program, it went backwards. 

Webelos has NEVER been intended to be another year of pure Cub Scouts.  It was intended to transition into Scouts, hence the Webelos acronym: "WE'll BE LOyal Scouts."

In the 1980s, BSA did research that showed it takes longer than 9-12 months to transition Cubs, and their  parents. That research led to the 18-24 month long period we are supposed to have, The transition is suppose to start in 4th grade because the research the BSA did in the 1980s.

The problem packs have in my area, and I bet in a lot of places since the problems seem to be the same, is that adults are tired of repeating training. Let's face it sitting on the computer doing training you already know, and in some cases have already taught, is BORING and leads to distract. OR if the training is not required, it is not done. And if you review the training. there is very little on the nuts in bolts of transition. In fact in some places, the information is cut and pasted from Cub Scout DL  training.

When I did the old, in person, day long Cub Scout Leader Basic Training, it covered all positions AND emphasized the differences between Tigers, Wolves and Bears, and Webelos (now Webelos and AOL).  Folks knew what lay ahead, and were prepared for it. When CSBLT was replaced with Cub Leader Specific, there was a lot of overlap with the 3 DL courses. Since my district had already planned CSBLT when Specific came out, the DE and I combined the 3 DL courses so that  it was done in a day. Nowadays it is online and you got all these modules you need to do. And let's face it, how many folks run training on a background window while they surf the net.

 

[5thGenTexan]

I know adding more requirements to an adult volunteer is not ideal, but maybe a Webelos / AOL Den Leader should be required to take BALOO/IOLS so they have an understanding of the skills needed.  Maybe it doesn't need to be a Den Leader at all but an ASM + Den Chief from a Troop who responsibility it is to help with the transfer from Pack life to a Troop.

[DannyG]

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

AOL, Scout & Tenderfoot all have the same knot requirements.   To me, it makes more sense to have a new scout who earned AOL work immediately on the Tenderfoot version than simply repeating it for Scout rank and then again for Tenderfoot.

They added Scout rank (requirements) in 2016.  I think the rank makes sense for someone brand new to scouting.  Awarding an AOL scout with Scout rank is an indication they likely already know the very basics of being a scout.  Similar to the Military having Eagle scouts start at E-3.

There is a subtle difference between AOL, Scout, and Tenderfoot knot requirements. AOL is ultimately "Do Your Best". Scout rank is "show" and "explain". Tenderfoot is "demonstrate" a practical use. Each step is a little harder and adds a proficiency. I think it makes sense for scouts to show the skill several times because it is something they are going to have to practice. Also once they bridge into a troop it shows them they need to work with other scouts to earn the rank. They aren't showing the skill to an adult den leader.

If a scout earns AOL and is proficient with their skills, they can earn Scout rank right away. I have seen AOL scouts bridge into a troop and earn it in one or two meetings. Most take a little longer because they have to work on some things. I'd rather younger scouts take their time, learn the skills, and not rush through ranks.