Can Committee Members Go Camping with the Troop ?

[Eagledad]

43 minutes ago, JSL3300 said:

My husband and I lead the Cub Scout pack that both of my boys were in prior to last year, when our oldest took the leap into Scouts BSA. The unit he chose is small and the SM and ASM are both older guys with no kids in the program. The older scouts were not overly welcoming and one of the boys that crossed with mine dropped after a couple of months because he felt bullied. 

We had a transparent conversation with one of the families from our pack that also picked that troop to cross into. We both revealed that we felt incredibly uncomfortable sending our boys into the woods with these men and older scouts. Because we all four led at the pack level, we already had YPT and what we decided is that one of the four of us will go on every campout until we felt comfortable letting them go solo. We didn't express exactly why we were doing this, but the SM and ASM have been completely fine with it and always check in to see if we're coming. 

I don't think it should be a policy that people without children in scouts can't go camping, but I do think it should be made obvious to parents that if they want to take YPT and camp with the troop that they are welcome. I don't think it's overprotective to be wary of a group that has had years and years of this type of history. 

This solution is an example of why leaders without is not a national issue. Most of the time, the unit will find a solution.

Also, intimidation from older is a more common problem. I knew of several troops with the intimidating older scouts. Leaders learn quickly that they better fix it or loose recruits.

Barry

[KublaiKen]

4 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

All else equal, suburban moms would probably prefer that suburban dads are the ones to take their children camping.

I'd wager that's very true, and that most would agree with you. I'd also contend that it's a radically different statement than what you opened with, which was more akin to that they won't allow their children to camp with anyone but suburban dads, and didn't deal much with preferences. I'd likewise contend that the "all else equal" doesn't ever (often?) exist.

But I don't disbelieve your point that your wife is not unique in her concerns, not by a long shot. I'm not a Millennial, my wife and I are Gen X, and "late to childhood" in some cultures and areas of the country, but my wife certainly had concerns with the BSA when my son was Tiger age in 2014. Our friends recruiting us for the Pack led with safety measures, so I know we weren't unique, either.

I guess the next thing is, what do we do about it? I see three certain avenues of approach:

1. BSA bans adults (male? female? who cares?) who don't have children active in the program/unit/whatever, or bans them from overnight camping. We understand from posts here that this will mean the certain failure of some units, quite likely a bunch since so many are dependent on this type of volunteer. Certainly District and Council operations could be hindered (sit on your fingers, Lads!) if this demographic can't attend overnight at camporees, summer camps, etc.

2. Educate people (your wife's peer group, at least in this concern) about how this works now, the safety processes in place, the necessity for experienced and trained volunteers, and how one's own active participation is the primary barrier to ANY problems, not just sexual abuse.

3. Tell her it's her hangup, and she can either get over it or get lost.

There are certainly more, at least by degree, right?

[InquisitiveScouter]

We offer an orientation to parents, and spend a great deal of time on "How do we keep your kids safe?"

Removing adults without children in the program is a recipe for failure.  They're the ones with the "bandwidth" available to make such an admittedly complex program as Scouting work (well).

We encourage our new parents to camp with us.  We require YPT, and background checks (usually free) per our state law in PA.

We did have a parent wish to camp, without sufficient time to complete the above.  We allowed it, but said they must, at all times, be with one of our registered adults.  They were allowed NO supervisory role, including driving Scouts to the outing (other than their own), per our state law for volunteer clearance requirements.

It is a mixed bag here.  Our experience is that there is safety in numbers... of adults that is.  It is unusual for us to have fewer than four adults on a trip.  We are often in the 8-10 range.  Makes for a nice adult Patrol

 

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[5thGenTexan]

13 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

Allow me to provide some insight into how a typical Millennial marriage works: If my wife wanted to quit her job tomorrow, she would be praised for putting her family first. If I wanted to quit my job tomorrow, society would ask -  "what the heck is wrong with this guy?" My exclusive domain as a father is our investment portfolio, the lawn, and maybe how the basement is decorated. That's it. Mothers get final say on everything else. You could say that's also "straight-up sexist," but it's a common marriage dynamic of which the BSA needs to be cognizant

I am a 47 year old Gen Xer and I think that's ridiculous.  Kids were born in 2008 and 2010.  My wife had a better job with benefits.  I became a stay at home dad.  I am the one that gets up early, gets the kids ready, fix lunches, take them to school, go to the school meetings during the day.  Do laundry, take care of the dishes, mow, fix plumbing, etc.  Neither of us makes all the decisions about anything.  

I am the CC for two Troops, been a DL, a CM, several committee positions.  In my 6 years of doing this across two programs and three Units, I have not run into the marriage dynamic you speak of.  I get dads that are the most involved, I have moms that are the most involved, but never do I get any indication that only the mother is making all the decisions. 

The CC I took over for had not had a Scout in the Troop for years.  Yet he was the one that led the crossover Scouts on their walk of reflection.  We have another committee member who also has not had a Scout in the Troop for years who go on about half the campouts a year.  I can think of several former leaders from our Troop I WISH would come back and help out.  

Counting out a dedicated experienced leader because they no longer have a Scout in the Troop is not really one of my considerations just because a new family doesnt like it,.  Makes me think of helicopter Webelos 3 ways of thinking, and we don't need that.

[Eagle94-A1]

3 hours ago, KublaiKen said:

I guess the next thing is, what do we do about it? I see three certain avenues of approach:

1. BSA bans adults (male? female? who cares?) who don't have children active in the program/unit/whatever, or bans them from overnight camping. We understand from posts here that this will mean the certain failure of some units, quite likely a bunch since so many are dependent on this type of volunteer. Certainly District and Council operations could be hindered (sit on your fingers, Lads!) if this demographic can't attend overnight at camporees, summer camps, etc.

 

Let me tell you what happens when the folks with no kids, but all the knowledge, skills, abilities, time, treasure, and dedication leave: THE DISTRICT SLOWLY DIES AS THERE IS NO ONE TO TAKE THEIR PLACE (major emphasis)

I know this for a fact because it has happened in my area. The professional staff has ticked off those folks, and they no longer have anything to do with the council. Training numbers and quality has plummeted. Program is very parochial, if it exists at all. The number of activities has dropped because the volunteers who ran events, usually those without kids in the program still, do not want to deal with the council. Commissioner Staff, the folks who are suppose to help units out n trouble is non existent. There is one commissioner, who has no kids in the program, although a grandchild in a few years, who is trying to hold it all together by himself because no one wants to be bullied by the pros.

And trust me, ew have had some arrogant professionals. One of the best CMs I ever knew stayed around over 20+ after the son Crossed Over. In additions to being CM, served in multiple program roles, including training. One arrogant DE tried to demean and degrade them publicly. They got ticked off and yelled back, " I've forgotten more about scouting than you ever learned, and I still know more than you!" They finished the program, and then stopped being involved.

WE NEED EXPERIENCED SCOUTERS! ( emphasis)

[qwazse]

On 1/27/2023 at 6:16 PM, BetterWithCheddar said:

Unpopular take: This is 2023. Grown men without children in the unit should not participate in overnight activities.

I'm fully aware this would exclude many terrific volunteers from participating in a key aspect of the program. By all means, they are welcome to volunteer in other capacities (staffing a day camp or training parent volunteers, for example). As a 30-something parent, I'd be highly skeptical of a male volunteering at the unit level if that person wasn't also a parent and I'm certain my wife shares my skepticism. And we all know moms drive the big household decisions (like whether kids get to participate in Scouting).

I will not hazard the well-being of the youth in my community by stepping back from scouting due to the prejudices of 30-somethings who, having a fraction of my training, make flawed ecological hypotheses.

The worst thing that a parent can do is assume that fellow parents will have their child’s best interest at heart.

[fred8033]

On 1/27/2023 at 9:48 PM, SiouxRanger said:

And what is the issue if a Committee Member "works like an ASM?"

A scout needs a mentor, a scout learns, a scout passes his requirement, AND THEN some "rule" is offended?" (Yet, the Scout learned the requirement? Mission accomplished.)

An adult is needed to mentor scouts. In 25 years I've never heard a scout complain that he achieved a goal because he was mentored by a "mere" member of the committee.

 

The issue is coordination with the SM.  Similar to too many cooks ruin the soup.  The MC/ASM needs to follow the vision / guidance / coordination of the SM; not the CC. 

Too many troops end up with a quirky program because "everyone" thinks they can just step in.  So if "works like an ASM" means the MC is asking the SM "how can I help" and "how should I handle XXX", then great.  Once the MC/ASM is up to speed with SM vision, then that MC/ASM can more easily "step in".   

It's the whole reason for adults to declare on their registration.  Are you an ASM or a MC?

Edited January 30, 2023 by fred8033

[5thGenTexan]

2 hours ago, fred8033 said:

The issue is coordination with the SM.  Similar to too many cooks ruin the soup.  The MC/ASM needs to follow the vision / guidance / coordination of the SM; not the CC. 

Too many troops end up with a quirky program because "everyone" thinks they can just step in.  So if "works like an ASM" means the MC is asking the SM "how can I help" and "how should I handle XXX", then great.  Once the MC/ASM is up to speed with SM vision, then that MC/ASM can more easily "step in".   

It's the whole reason for adults to declare on their registration.  Are you an ASM or a MC?

Some days the SM needs adult supervision.  Last year, we were running stations for Webelos Woods and we needed a trash bag.  Back to the campsite I headed to get a bag from the trailer.  Got there and there were three or four Scouts washing dishes.  The "clean" dishes were still caked with raw pancake batter and sausage.  There were two adults shooting the bull around the fire and not paying attention.  When I was able to get back to where the ASM and SM were with the Troop and also shooting the bull, I told em one of needed to get back and supervise Scouts.  

I have little faith in our SM at this time.

[qwazse]

There is a necessary balance between @fred8033 and @5thGenTexan. We need to realize that any MC could have a chilling effect on the direct contact leaders’ creativity and dedication, but also that direct contact leaders do need mentoring and feedback.

[BattMom4]

The BSA's Youth Protection and Barriers to Abuse FAQs at https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/yp-faqs/ were updated in February 2023, clarifying some of the discussion that has been posted on this thread regarding overnight outings at the Scouts BSA level, in particular for units that might use Merit Badge Counselors as a required registered adult, and the 72-hour rule. 

As of September 2023, all adults on an overnight outing must be registered, replacing the previous 72-hour policy (note the effective date of September 2023 does not appear on the FAQs, but it is in Guide to Safe Scouting). They further clarify that the registered position must be "adult fee required", and note that registration as a Merit Badge Counselor does not meet this requirement. While a merit badge counselor would not satisfy this Barriers to Abuse policy, a Committee Member would since they are listed on the list of "fee required" positions. 

In conjunction with the requisite two registered adults over 21, one of which must be a female if female youth are participating required by YPT, the Guide to Safe Scouting on page 21 says that supervision of camping activities must include "qualified, registered, adult leadership", and that one leader present is current in Hazardous Weather Training. The SAFE list on page 40 says that adults are to be "adequately trained, experienced, and skilled to lead the activity, including the ability to prevent and respond to likely problems and potential emergencies" and that they know and deliver "the program of the Boy Scouts of America with integrity." Offering a safe, quality program should be the goal on every outing.

I could find no where in BSA literature where they state that the "trained" leader must be an ASM. It has always been odd to me that the BSA specifies that at least one BALOO trained adult must be on a Cub Scout campout, but does not specify that an ASM must be on a Scouts BSA campout. It could certainly be implied by the description of IOLS training which "provides adult leaders the practical outdoor skills they need to lead Scouts in the out-of-doors" and that SM/ASM are generally categorized as Scout-facing positions. 

In my opinion, at least one of the required adults on an overnight outing should be an experienced ASM with the scoutcraft skills to supervise the outing and mentor their youth leadership. It is difficult to deliver a quality program without this. The second adult leader could be an experience or inexperienced, ASM or Committee member. I have camped with committee members as my second adult, who may not have scoutcraft skills, but have the experience to assist in supervising or mentoring in a youth-led fashion. I have also camped with inexperienced adult leaders. New leaders should accompany experienced leaders to get experience in how they can best help deliver a youth led program. As others have said, troops or councils can have more stringent policies, so as your unit commissioner for more information.