Can Committee Members Go Camping with the Troop ?

[Alec27]

I apologize if this is a well known policy, but I have not been able to find a definitive answer as of yet.  We have a committee member who has been with the Troop for a long time.  He is a former SM, ASM and MBC.  He has decided to serve now, only, as a committee member and we are grateful for his service, however, some of the parents of our newer scouts have questioned me as to whether or not it is allowed according to BSA policy for a committee member to go on overnight outings, summer camp, canoe trips, etc.  By the definitions as I understand in YPT, at least 2 Trained Adult Leaders must be present, which usually we have covered, but at times, it is an outing with only 1 Trained Adult Leader (one of our ASM's) and this Committee Member and no other adults.  

Thank you all.  Very happy to be part of the forum.  I've used it many times to find answers and advice and consider it a very valuable resource.  

 

-alec

[MattR]

Welcome to the forum,  @Alec27.

A committee member can go camping, unless your troop specifically forbids it.

You do need to cover the YPT Rules. My impression is "2 registered adults" includes committee, assuming they're registered, especially if they're a former SM.

Maybe some of these parents complaining should register and solve this problem. I know, but it is my first thought on this.

[nolesrule]

The requirement per the Guide to Safe Scouting is that two registered adult leaders 21 and older are required for all scouting activities including meetings.  A committee member is a registered adult leader who is 21 and older. The point of being registered is that they have had the background check and they have done their YPT certification. 

Regardless, as a former SM/ASM, one would hope they have already taken the SM/ASM training and OLS at some point for their previous position anyway, neither of which expire, making the fact that they are registered as a committee member kind of irrelevant. Additionally they are likely to have the experience needed for outings anyway, so they would be  an excellent resource.

The only thing I would recommend is that all registered adults who go on outings keep their YPT current (don't let it expire, don't wait till right before recharter) and  also keep their hazardous Weather training current.

I'm registered in a girls troop that is now a little over 3 years old, and we only had female committee members and no female ASMs until this past November. We would not have been able to do anything at all if committee members didn't count.

[qwazse]

I love it when my committee members camp with us!

[InquisitiveScouter]

4 hours ago, nolesrule said:

The point of being registered is that they have had the background check and they have done their YPT certification. 

This, but the primary point is that those adults are approved by your CO to be registered in their Scout program.

The CO approves and has authority over ALL adult leaders in their chartered Scouting program.  If the CO doesn't want someone involved in their Scouting program, they (through the COR) can direct them to leave. The only reason council would intervene is if the adult does not meet BSA Membership Standards (usually revealed in criminal background check).

This is why two units are not to intermix activities without council approval...  Council would ask if the CO's approve the inter-unit activity and "accept" each others leaders.  If the two CO's approve of the inter-unit activity, council really doesn't have a dog in the fight.  If council pushed it, then the way around council?  Each units' leaders and youth would multiple-register in the other unit... (for free and can be done by the members/units themselves now on my.scouting.org  ... no need to involve the registrar) 😜

And BTW, all that background info on the Adult Application ?  That is for the CO!!  Read the fine print on the CO approval:

"APPROVALS FOR UNIT ADULTS: I have reviewed this application and the responses to any questions answered “Yes,” and have made any follow-up inquiries necessary to be satisfied that the applicant possesses the moral, educational, and emotional qualities to be an adult leader in the BSA"

Notice the slightly different wording above the Council approval:

"APPROVAL FOR COUNCIL AND DISTRICT ADULTS: I have reviewed this application and have made any follow-up inquiries necessary to be satisfied that the applicant possesses the moral, educational, and emotional qualities to be an adult leader in the BSA."

Yes, Committee Members can serve as adult supervision on outings. 

If BSA required them to be registered as SM or SA, then they would say that. 

Now, two registered and fully trained SM / SA types are the best scenario...

Edited January 26, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[Alec27]

Wow...that's an awesome amount of info (in a good way) and Thank You so very much for the feedback.  It definitely clarified a lot for me, for sure, and I guess my only other question is.....per the GSS verbiage of "2 Adult Leaders" and in some cases in the GSS verbiage of "2 TRAINED Adult Leaders", does the word "Leader" mean to say a registered, YPT certified adult who currently holds a leadership position in the troop?  And can a "Leader" be one that is not IOLS "Trained" ?  

Thank You Again.  You All Are Awesome !

[InquisitiveScouter]

24 minutes ago, Alec27 said:

Wow...that's an awesome amount of info (in a good way) and Thank You so very much for the feedback.  It definitely clarified a lot for me, for sure, and I guess my only other question is.....per the GSS verbiage of "2 Adult Leaders" and in some cases in the GSS verbiage of "2 TRAINED Adult Leaders", does the word "Leader" mean to say a registered, YPT certified adult who currently holds a leadership position in the troop?  And can a "Leader" be one that is not IOLS "Trained" ?  

Thank You Again.  You All Are Awesome !

Yes.  You will not find specific direction to have IOLS to take youth camping.

CAVEAT:  Your council may invoke stricter requirements that the G2SS!!!  Check your council's unit leader training policy.  If your Council says you have to have IOLS, then you must.

Read through the entire G2SS.  Depending on the activity, different levels of training are required...

For example, under the Camping section, ONE leader must have Hazardous Weather Training:

Supervision of camping activities must include qualified, registered, adult leadership. [no specifications for "qualified" other than the verbiage that follows]

• At a minimum, one leader present is current in Hazardous Weather
  Training for all unit types. It is recommended that all leaders complete
  this training every two years.

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss03/

 

And for Swimming:

Adult leaders supervising a swimming activity must have completed Safe Swim Defense training within the previous two years.

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss02/

 

And for Snorkeling:

In addition to Safe Swim Defense training and the 21-year-old minimum age, the supervisor must be an experienced snorkeler. At a minimum, the supervisor must possess skills and knowledge matching the Snorkeling BSA Award and have experience with environments similar to those of the planned activity.

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss02/

 

And for "boating" activities ( " All activity afloat..."):

At least one leader must be trained in first aid including CPR.

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss02/

 

etc., etc., etc.

Edited January 26, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[fred8033]

9 hours ago, Alec27 said:

Wow...that's an awesome amount of info (in a good way) and Thank You so very much for the feedback.  It definitely clarified a lot for me, for sure, and I guess my only other question is.....per the GSS verbiage of "2 Adult Leaders" and in some cases in the GSS verbiage of "2 TRAINED Adult Leaders", does the word "Leader" mean to say a registered, YPT certified adult who currently holds a leadership position in the troop?  And can a "Leader" be one that is not IOLS "Trained" ?  

Thank You Again.  You All Are Awesome !

@Alec27 ....  The related question is SHOULD they be camping with you AND what is their ROLE when camping?  

IMHO, rules are to cover guide to safe scouting.  The "should" and "role" is always my main concern.  Committee members are administrative; not scout-facing.  Too often committee members work like ASMs.  That's not "preferred".   Sometimes it's necessary due to number of registered adults.    So on camp outs ... just like troop meetings, etc ... scouts work with scouts first; then with SM and the ASMs.  Ideally, scouts don't work with committee members.

[Alec27]

Fred, 

That makes a lot of sense and thank you for the feedback.  I feel the same way and agree 100%.   Thanks again !

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

@Alec27 ....  The related question is SHOULD they be camping with you AND what is their ROLE when camping?  

IMHO, rules are to cover guide to safe scouting.  The "should" and "role" is always my main concern.  Committee members are administrative; not scout-facing.  Too often committee members work like ASMs.  That's not "preferred".   Sometimes it's necessary due to number of registered adults.    So on camp outs ... just like troop meetings, etc ... scouts work with scouts first; then with SM and the ASMs.  Ideally, scouts don't work with committee members.

Committee Members ought to go camping (or visit an overnight camping trip) to observe the performance of the SM Corps.  It is not the ideal that MCs would be there as the required adult supervision.

Totally concur with @fred8033... except one point...

Scouts should ideally work with Committee Members for their Positions of Responsibility, where appropriate.

e.g., Scribe, Webmaster, Librarian, Chaplains Aide, Historian, etc. etc., as these are administrative in nature.

For other PORs, it is ONLY appropriate to be under the mentorship of someone in the SM Corps...

e.g., SPL with SM, OA Rep with ASM OA Advisor, Troop Guide with ASMs, etc. etc.

IMHO, and in a perfect world, each Scout in a POR would have an adult (or older Scout) mentor to help them develop and execute SMART goals for their POR.  We hit that mark about 25- 30% of the time. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[curious_scouter]

What's your takes on MB counselors?  My understanding is G2SS does not say the registered adult leaders have to be leaders in your unit.  So for example, a Den Leader from the Pack or a MB Counselor are both registered leaders with BSA.  As long as they were YPT and did not present a concern to me about having enough qualified supervision - I would be able to leverage either should I ever need to fill 2-up for our Troop.

FWIW, I am generally happy to allow any interested adult to come camping.  Camping is fun, they should get to enjoy it - with the adult Patrol.  My ask as SM is that any non-ASM who wishes to attend consult with me before committing.  It's important to me to set expectations on how to conduct oneself as an adult on a Scouts BSA outing.  I need them to understand "the way" and ensure they will let the Scouts do. 

In the end, we are required to allow parents to observe any aspect of the program they wish.  Noone can really say a parent is not allowed to come camping as far as I understand.  They must be permitted if they insist.  "All aspects of the Scouting program are open to observation by parents and leaders."

[qwazse]

@curious_scouter, my only advice: don’t suffer fools. Training should be commensurate with the needs. For example, I don’t care how good my counselors are at shooting sports, their of no use to my scouts on land navigation challenges unless I know that they keep sharp in that skill.

Regarding mentoring youth … like you said, I need adults who can take a step back. For example, I am a very good cook, as are a couple of other dads. But if the boys are doing their own meals, we make our own adult cooking area. If we aren’t cooking and will be guests of a patrol, we sit apart waiting for them to invite us to table. Although I’m a good cook, I’m willing to eat a serving of burnt grilled cheese sandwich from the hand of a youth.

If my committee does one thing for us SM’s, they create an space for the adults to be comfortable at a distance from the boys.

[KublaiKen]

While YPT is required of all adult leaders, we also require it of any parent who camps with us. But I have heard that the 72-hour loophole might be disappearing as a result of the settlement, and I am hearing that some camps are already requiring any adult who stays the night to be a registered leader.

[InquisitiveScouter]

19 hours ago, curious_scouter said:

What's your takes on MB counselors?  My understanding is G2SS does not say the registered adult leaders have to be leaders in your unit.  So for example, a Den Leader from the Pack or a MB Counselor are both registered leaders with BSA.  As long as they were YPT and did not present a concern to me about having enough qualified supervision - I would be able to leverage either should I ever need to fill 2-up for our Troop.

FWIW, I am generally happy to allow any interested adult to come camping.  Camping is fun, they should get to enjoy it - with the adult Patrol.  My ask as SM is that any non-ASM who wishes to attend consult with me before committing.  It's important to me to set expectations on how to conduct oneself as an adult on a Scouts BSA outing.  I need them to understand "the way" and ensure they will let the Scouts do. 

In the end, we are required to allow parents to observe any aspect of the program they wish.  Noone can really say a parent is not allowed to come camping as far as I understand.  They must be permitted if they insist.  "All aspects of the Scouting program are open to observation by parents and leaders."

You are correct: the G2SS states "registered leaders" versus registered unit leaders.  I asked this same question regarding MB counselors to our council three years ago, and got conflicting answers through DE and FD, and was asked by our FD to ask the YP folks at national (which he later denied --- wished I'd had that one in writing, as in our conversations he relayed he had spoken to SE about it 😜 )  YP national folks generated a somewhat scathing response, delivered by Michael Johnson himself, that I should just listen to council and stop trying to circumvent their registration policies.  LOL.

The letter of the law answer is ambiguous, at best.  From national, 'MB counselors do not qualify, but clarify with your council.'  From our local council, 'just don't get us in trouble, and have you made your FOS contribution yet?'

The spirit of the law answer is: get approval from your COR to take them with your unit

One final thought... G2SS now says "Adult program participants must register as adults and follow Youth Protection policies."  I interpret this to mean adults (parents) may observe our program just fine.  But if an adult wishes to participate in the program (like camping overnight), then they "must register as adults."  NOTE:  it does not delimit which positions qualify as a "registered adult"  So, MB counselors would fit into the criteria of that wording.

Bottom Line:  If you really want an answer to your question, you must get your SE's read on it, if you can 😜  In general, any time there is ambiguity in policy (and it is written in there intentionally, I often think...) then National will defer to your Scout Executive's ruling.  

As some here are fond of saying (paraphrasing)... Never ask for a rule: you won't like the answer you get.

Edited January 27, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[MikeS72]

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

One final thought... G2SS now says "Adult program participants must register as adults and follow Youth Protection policies."  I interpret this to mean adults (parents) may observe our program just fine.  But if an adult wishes to participate in the program (like camping overnight), then they "must register as adults." 

I would believe that reference to 'adult program participants" means those 18, 19, & 20 year olds who are also a part of a crew, ship, or post; or who are registered as an ASM in a troop and still qualify as a youth at OA activities.