Elections for Dummies

[Mrjeff]

It seems that a lot of folks put the cart before the horse.  I think the real issue is why someone who has completed the Ordeal not want to be in good standing.  The OA has a lot to offer a young person especially when they get  a little older and would like to be involved in Scouting leadership that really does let the kids run the show.  It also keeps them involved in Scouting after earning Eagle.  This is only possible if the unit supports the lodge by encouraging active participation.   If a policeman does not get his required annual training no one is going to say "that's OK, well take care of it."  Instead that officer looses their power to arrest and can't participate actively in his job.  They don't stop being a cop, they just aren't allowed to play in the game.  It's not a good idea for that officer to grab his badge and gun and go on patrol until the issue is corrected.  At that time they become a full fledged officer again and can get back to work.  Maybe that will help clarify this, a bit.

[KublaiKen]

1 hour ago, Mrjeff said:

I think the real issue is why someone who has completed the Ordeal not want to be in good standing.

1. For us, a complete lack of OA in the Troop for many years. We didn't have elections for three years before 2019. And there was almost no interest, because:

• the Chapter meets on the same night as our Troop meetings.
• the older guys who were Arrowmen said, "All they they do is eat ice cream at the Chapter meetings." And this is blatantly not true!

2. All they do is eat pizza at the Chapter meetings.

3. Our Ordeals are completely uninspiring. They can barely drag four Scouts into the principal roles. That the parts be memorized or seemingly even read through sometimes seems out of the question. One of the reasons ceremonialists are hard to come by, in addition to the practice time, is that even now there is too much of #4.

4. The same old 800-pound gorilla: the Native American stuff. Guys around here are embarrassed by it and want no part of it. They're kids and young men, but they see which side of history they feel it belongs on, and they don't want to be associated with it. Many never complete their Ordeals, and the sash-and-dash rate among those who do has to be astronomical.

[InquisitiveScouter]

4 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

I think the real issue is why someone who has completed the Ordeal not want to be in good standing. 

No, that isn't the issue.

I know many Arrowmen who are in good standing in their units (the people who honored them with the recognition in the first place), who do not wish to be associated with a lodge.

I am one of them

The purpose of the OA is not to put another rock in a Scout's rucksack.

4 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

This is only possible if the unit supports the lodge by encouraging active participation. 

LOL, no! 

https://oa-bsa.org/about/organization-structure

Lodges

At the local level, lodges exist to serve BSA councils and individual units. The key leaders in the lodge are the youth lodge chief, volunteer adult lodge adviser, and professional staff adviser. The lodge chief presides over the Lodge Executive Committee, which is responsible for executing the annual program of the lodge. While each lodge is different, the Lodge Executive Committee typically consists of one or more vice chiefs, a secretary, and a treasurer, as well as chapter and/or service area chiefs and operating committee chairmen who are responsible for various aspects of the lodge’s program. Many lodges, especially large ones where additional structure is necessary, have service areas and chapters to chapters. These often align with BSA districts and execute the program of the lodge on a community level.

Units do not exist to support the lodge!  You have it backwards!

This is one key reason that the OA does not fare well.  Many lodges are like big self-licking ice cream cones.  They exist primarily to serve themselves, and that is why many unit leaders do not allow the OA program in their unit! (You do understand that principle of prerogative?) Here, the OA created a Venturing unit just to provide lodge members a place to keep their BSA registrations so they could continue to serve the lodge without being involved with any local units.  The Venturing unit is a "shell corporation."   How do you think the unit leaders in this council view that Crew?

As a leader, I encourage our youth to participate in the lodge, if they wish.  But, they are under no obligation to do so. I also tell them that, if that participation detracts from their service to their unit (i.e., the people who selected them for the honor in the first place), then they have misplaced their priorities.

Your policeman analogy is unintelligible, and does not clarify.

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

7 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

 If a policeman does not get his required annual training no one is going to say "that's OK, well take care of it."  Instead that officer looses their power to arrest and can't participate actively in his job.  They don't stop being a cop, they just aren't allowed to play in the game.  It's not a good idea for that officer to grab his badge and gun and go on patrol until the issue is corrected.  At that time they become a full fledged officer again and can get back to work. 

Let's take that analogy, and substitute Arrowman back in, and appropriate terms to reverse the analogy...

If an Arrowman does not pay his annual Lodge dues, no one is going to say "that's OK, we'll take care of it." (????) Instead, the Arrowman loses their power to serve their unit and can't actively participate in their unit.  They don't stop being an Arrowman, they just aren't allowed to serve their unit.  It's not a good idea for that Arrowman to grab his sash and go back to serve until the issue [paying his dues] is corrected.  At that time [upon paying his lodge dues] they become a full fledged Arrowman again and can get back to work serving their unit.

[Eagle94-A1]

8 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

 I think the real issue is why someone who has completed the Ordeal not want to be in good standing. 

@KublaiKenlistes some great reasons. I will add some more

1. Costs, Scouting is getting more and more expensive.  Over 1/2 my troop cannot afford the yearly national registration and council fees. Add on OA fees and event costs, and it is too much,

2. The quality of today's Arrowmen. My boys grew up hearing my Scouting tales, including my OA stories. They know the OA is supposed to be an honor society. But today anyone can get elected.  My family switched troops, but the boys still have friends in the old troop. Several of the Scouts,  that got elected from that troop were from the families that caused all kinds of problems, wanting to make Scouts a continuation of Cub Scouts. After the Call Out Ceremony (more on that), they went to their friends and asked how could these two Scouts get elected, and were told everyone gets into the OA.

3. Uninspiring ceremonies. Unlike @KublaiKen, the Native American regalia has not been a concern in my area. In fact, it was awe-inspiring and not cheesy "Hollywood Indian." Grant you the chapter and lodge had help in this matter. We had a ethnohistorian doing research, as well as assistance with local nations. Heck one of the local drums got started at an OA function at the main council camp. And I have been told one of the local colleges' powwows got their start with some of our  Arrowmen organizing the first one.  And we also had some quality advisors who staffed conclaves and NOACs. Not only were the Pre-Ordeal, Ordeal, and Brotherhood Ceremonies impressive, but also the AOL and Cross Over Ceremonies. My kids grew up seeing these inspirational AOL and Cross Over ceremonies.

And then the AOL/Crossover Ban came. Instead of Inspirational ceremonies, you got a corny skit for AOL, and a High Adventure Base commercial for Cross Over. None of the ceremony teams in my area would do those. And with concerns about the future of AIA, interest in ceremonies have dropped to the point that our chapter does not have one. Further, when the chapter moved to their new home, they were located in at my troop's Scout Room, and we had a storage room just for them, they left behind all the regalia and supplies. Gustoweh's,  gorget breastplates, shirts, front seam leggings,  fingerwoven garters and sashes, etc all left behind.

My older two  sons Call Out Ceremony was such a disappointment, that SMs and family members from several units complained. Folks locally were used to impressive Call Out ceremonies. The folks involved with the AOL/Cross Over Ceremonies also did Call Out and Pre-Ordeal Ceremonies. The ban cost the chapter a ceremony team. Their Call Out ceremony was 2 adults reading names of a sheet of paper at the campfire. And they were not even in uniform or all in black. Just regular clothes and sashes.

The last Call Out Ceremony was only marginally better.  They at least had youth in uniforms. But they were still reading from sheets.

Loss of Camps.  Let's face it, the Order of the Arrow was originally an Honor Camper program, focused on improving and promoting camps. Even as the OA morphed into an honor  society anyone can join, chapters and lodges still kept focused on camps. Locally my chapter maintained the local camp because our council did not. Any work needed to be done, any improvements needed to be made, any supplies needed to be purchased, 90% of the time it came from the OA. This only intensified when the ranger died, and was not replaced. Local Arrowman assumed his duties. Once the decision to sell the camp was made, and all usable equipment was moved to the main camp, no one had any incentive to work on the camp. Heck the council event took equipment that did not belong to them, stuff volunteers owned and left because transporting it back and forth was a pain. At one point grass was head high, deer were plentiful, and I saw evidence of homeless  living in Adirondack shelters. Only time  work was done was just before events, and it was done by the volunteers because the head ranger stated the local camp was "not my problem." This situation went on for 16 months. Worse part about moving the equipment was no  one was notified prior to the removal. We had a group of volunteers show up to prepare for a camporee, and none of the equipment we were going to use was there,

But @Mrjeff's comment

Quote

The OA has a lot to offer a young person especially when they get  a little older and would like to be involved in Scouting leadership that really does let the kids run the show. 

Is one of the reasons OA in my neck of the woods is slowly dying IMHO. The National OA committee currently has only 3 Youth members out of 30+ members. At least that is better than a few years back when there were only 2 youth members out of a committee of 60+  That is not Youth running the show.  When the AOL/Cross Over ban came out, one of the youth members of the National Committee visited my lodge and would not discuss anything related to the decision, despite being constantly asked. At it is not just at the national level. In the local lodge, SEs and LAs have overuled the members AND the lodge's general membership. Over 90% of the lodge's membership voted against changing by-laws, and they were overuled by the LA under the SE's orders. the youth were told "he doesn't care what they voted,  it's going to happen anyway," So why would any be interested

[InquisitiveScouter]

One of the best ways Lodges used to serve units was with a Where to Go Camping Booklet (WTGCB).  It was researched and published frequently by the lodge.  My home Lodge did this, and there was even an award at our Conclave for Best WTGCB.

Some lodges still do this service for units.

https://danbeard.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Dan_Beard_Council_Where_to_Go_Camping_Guide_June_2018.pdf

http://www.nisqually155.org/resources/Where_to_Go_Camping_Guide.pdf

https://eswau.net/where-to-go-camping-guide/

Ours does not.

[Mrjeff]

I couldn't agree more! But the more people just through up their hands and point out all of the negatives, the worse things get.  To fix these problems, a [...] lodge advisor who has a good relationship with the CE, and who gives support to the real LEC is a must.  That Advisor along with the CE need to stand fast when good intentioned adults want to interfere with the business of the LEC.  National Committee?  Who are they and what do they do other then to stir [...] people off.  Try talking to one of them and see how far it gets you.  The leadership within the lodge should focus on all of these negative issues in their own lodge and not even worry about everyone else, even the national committee.  I would encourage every experienced and registered adult to grab one of these problems within their lodge and help fix the problem.  Those mystical and powerful members of the national committee have no idea what the local lodges struggle with and have a hard time realizing that what works in Main may not Work in Texas and what works in California may not work in Tennessee.  Those guys around focus on making things easier for local lodges and plan the next NOAC, and leave the local lodges to THE LEC!

Edited February 7, 2023 by MattR
not scoutlike, certainly not honorable

[Eagle94-A1]

@Mrjeff, in my area, the problem is the council execs. Because they can do whatever they want, if adults question them they are removed. And it is not just OA. I can not tell you how many folks have been removed by CEs at the district and/or council level. And the LEC cannot do anything about it.

Something I learned recently, it is customary for lodge chiefs to sit on council exec board for 3 years, their term of office plus 2 years. Some of the lodge chiefs who protested to much interference were not placed on the ballot for the additional years.

And yes, the national committee are for the most part pretty clueless in the field. There are a few exceptions, but they are in the very small minority, and easily outvoted.

[MattR]

This thread has been locked.

And posts have been hidden.

It's time for courteous, cheerful and kind.

Edited February 9, 2023 by MattR