Elections for Dummies

[HashTagScouts]

3 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

Ok, its a pretty simple train to follow:  attend the ordeal, complete the ordeal, remain active by paying dues, attend events, wear Sash.  Or attend the ordeal, complete the ordeal, don't remain active by not paying dues, don't attend lodge events, no Sash. Obviously I did read the post and perhaps you should read the mountains of literature available explaining the purpose and mission of the OA.   In fact it's now impossible to register for an event like NOAC unless you are an active member of your lodge.  Should I continue?

 

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

LOL

Yes, you should continue after reading the following:

Let's start with the Purpose and Mission of the OA: https://oa-bsa.org/about/mission-purpose

Mission & Purpose

 

For over 100 years, the Order of the Arrow (OA) has recognized Scouts and Scouters who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives.  This recognition provides encouragement for others to live these ideals as well.  Arrowmen are known for maintaining camping traditions and spirit, promoting year-round and long term resident camping, and providing cheerful service to others.  OA service, activities, adventures, and training for youth and adults are models of quality leadership development and programming that enrich and help to extend Scouting to America's youth.

Mission

The mission of the Order of the Arrow is to fulfill its purpose as an integral part of the Boy Scouts of America through positive youth leadership under the guidance of selected capable adults.

Purpose

As Scouting’s National Honor Society, our purpose is to:

• Recognize those who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives and through that recognition cause others to conduct themselves in a way that warrants similar recognition.
• Promote camping, responsible outdoor adventure, and environmental stewardship as essential components of every Scout’s experience, in the unit, year-round, and in summer camp.
• Develop leaders with the willingness, character, spirit and ability to advance the activities of their units, our Brotherhood, Scouting, and ultimately our nation.
• Crystallize the Scout habit of helpfulness into a life purpose of leadership in cheerful service to others.

 Please show me ANY statement in the above that membership requires a Scout to do anything with the Lodge after completing his induction. 😜 

Here's another reference:  https://oa-bsa.org/article/ask-chairman-can-members-who-are-not-dues-paid-wear-lodge-flap

Please note, "An Order of the Arrow member can always wear their sash and the Universal Arrow Ribbon once they have completed the induction. However, wearing a lodge flap indicates that their current dues are paid in the specific lodge that the flap represents. So, if the individual has not paid their dues, they should remove the flap from their uniform."

If you actually bothered to read the "mountains of literature" with intellectual honesty, you could only come to the conclusion that you are mistaken.

And I agree with your statement about NOAC, but that is irrelevant.  I made absolutely no pronouncements about NOAC or any other lodge, section, or National events like that.

OA business includes unit OA elections, where any Arrowman may wear his sash, regardless of his current lodge affiliation.

OA events at Summer Camp would also fit the bill.  OA days, OA Ice Cream Socials, Call-outs at the campfire, etc. etc. etc.  An Arrowman may wear his sash for those events, regardless of his current lodge affiliation.

Parents who are Arrowmen, and no longer affiliated with BSA, but observing the induction of their Scout at an Ordeal may wear their sash while attending, regardless of their current lodge affiliation.

You must make a distinction between being an Arrowman and being a lodge member.  They are two separate statuses.  Once inducted, you are ALWAYS a member of the Order of the Arrow.  Once you let your dues lapse in a lodge, you are no longer a "member in good standing", but retain your status as an Arrowman.  The honor was given by an Arrowman's unit, not by the Lodge.

Please continue, because you said "several" of my original assertions were incorrect.  You have yet to name any that were incorrect.

I'll leave you with two thoughts that apply in the situation:

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

"When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest."

 

The conversation a Lodge Adviser has to have every now and then... Like the BSA, there is no such thing as lifetime membership in the OA. You are a member so long as you pay your membership dues. So no, it isn't exactly appropriate that someone continue to wear a sash if they are not paying their membership dues, the same as it is not appropriate to continue to wear a BSA uniform if you are not paying your annual BSA membership fee. True that an individual only goes through Ordeal once, but one has a continuing effort to be considered a member to wear the sash.

The handbook states "“Only currently registered members of the Boy Scouts of America and the Order may wear the insignia of the Order of the Arrow.” To be a member, you have to pay your Lodge dues, which includes $5.00 that goes to National for your OA membership dues.

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by HashTagScouts

[InquisitiveScouter]

23 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

 

The conversation a Lodge Adviser has to have every now and then... Like the BSA, there is no such thing as lifetime membership in the OA. You are a member so long as you pay your membership dues. So no, it isn't exactly appropriate that someone continue to wear a sash if they are not paying their membership dues, the same as it is not appropriate to continue to wear a BSA uniform if you are not paying your annual BSA membership fee. True that an individual only goes through Ordeal once, but one has a continuing effort to be considered a member to wear the sash.

The handbook states "“Only currently registered members of the Boy Scouts of America and the Order may wear the insignia of the Order of the Arrow.” To be a member, you have to pay your Lodge dues, which includes $5.00 that goes to National for your OA membership dues.

 

Your statement is in direct contradiction to that published on the National OA site.

https://oa-bsa.org/article/ask-chairman-can-members-who-are-not-dues-paid-wear-lodge-flap

I'll go by what they say, thanks!

[InquisitiveScouter]

28 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

Only currently registered members of the Boy Scouts of America and the Order may wear the insignia of the Order of the Arrow.

Although I would withdraw my parent example based on this...

Any registered member of BSA who is an Arrowman may wear his insignia.  He is a member of the Order, regardless of lodge affiliation.

[Eagle94-A1]

34 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

 

Like the BSA, there is no such thing as lifetime membership in the OA. You are a member so long as you pay your membership dues.

Actually prior to the early 1990s, some lodges did offer a lifetime membership in the OA, similar to the NESA Lifetime membership. Do not know when lifetime memberships got banned by national, but they in fact had them. Met a few folks who had them.

[InquisitiveScouter]

The absolute funny thing is, that I used to be of that mindset, during some of my tenure as Lodge Chief x 2/Vigil Honor (1984)/Ceremonies Team Chief x 6/Unit Elections x 2 /National Leadership Seminar/NOAC, etc etc. .etc But I had a great mentor who had been a Vigil Honor since the 1930's, was instrumental in founding many lodges in the Southeast, knew and worked with E. Urner Goodman, Carroll Edson, and J. Rucker Newbery, and a Lodge Advisor for another 25 years before I came along...

He pointed out the same principles I am pointing out to you.

[HashTagScouts]

23 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Actually prior to the early 1990s, some lodges did offer a lifetime membership in the OA, similar to the NESA Lifetime membership. Do not know when lifetime memberships got banned by national, but they in fact had them. Met a few folks who had them.

And ended, as not compatible with YP standards. OA functions are Scouting functions, and that was the clarity that we're told over and over.

[HashTagScouts]

31 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Although I would withdraw my parent example based on this...

Any registered member of BSA who is an Arrowman may wear his insignia.  He is a member of the Order, regardless of lodge affiliation.

I'm aware of what Capp said, also aware of the blowback those comments got. It undermined the purpose of the Lodge and forcing Lodges to send $$$ to National, when we could just create our own "camp society" and not operate under the name of Lodge. And, as the moment about NOAC illustrates, National doesn't actually stay in keeping to the Capp comments, as you can't attend a National event (NOAC, or even Arrow Corp, nor OAHA) without paying dues, and you have to do that through a Lodge.

[InquisitiveScouter]

2 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

I'm aware of what Capp said, also aware of the blowback those comments got. It undermined the purpose of the Lodge and forcing Lodges to send $$$ to National, when we could just create our own "camp society" and not operate under the name of Lodge. And, as the moment about NOAC illustrates, National doesn't actually stay in keeping to the Capp comments, as you can't attend a National event (NOAC, or even Arrow Corp, nor OAHA) without paying dues, and you have to do that through a Lodge.

And yet they have not been removed, nor changed, nor further clarified, in spite of any "blowback."  

And I have no contention with anyone's statements about what the attendance policies or standards are for Lodge, Section, Area (or Service Territory), or National OA events.  Never made any assertions otherwise.

Edited February 6, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[InquisitiveScouter]

5 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

I'm aware of what Capp said, also aware of the blowback those comments got. It undermined the purpose of the Lodge and forcing Lodges to send $$$ to National, when we could just create our own "camp society" and not operate under the name of Lodge. And, as the moment about NOAC illustrates, National doesn't actually stay in keeping to the Capp comments, as you can't attend a National event (NOAC, or even Arrow Corp, nor OAHA) without paying dues, and you have to do that through a Lodge.

So, to be clear, are you saying that Joey Scout, who is elected by his unit and goes through the Ordeal (having paid the fee and his membership dues in the local Lodge for the year), and becomes an Arrowman, that he ceases to be an Arrowman when his dues lapse next year for the local Lodge?

[curious_scouter]

Good info in here, I do like the tips about viewing this as "selection" vs. "election". 

Another thing I'd like to share is around eligibility.  Don't rely exclusively on things like your troop's website for eligibility.  We had a few Scouts who had transferred to our troop in the past year, their camping history was not complete on our website so they were overlooked but eligible.  Caused a bit of a fiasco because the ballots were nicely pre-printed by the elections team based on what an ASM told them from the troop web host report.

Now, I'm having ASMs work to re-compile all camping history into Scoutbook with the hope and idea that it'll make it easier to have a consolidated record and should a youth leave our unit for whatever reason we've done them a potential favor in that the activity follows them on Scoutbook vs. getting stuck on our TWH subscription.

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

Just now, curious_scouter said:

Good info in here, I do like the tips about viewing this as "selection" vs. "election". 

Another thing I'd like to share is around eligibility.  Don't rely exclusively on things like your troop's website for eligibility.  We had a few Scouts who had transferred to our troop in the past year, their camping history was not complete on our website so they were overlooked but eligible.  Caused a bit of a fiasco because the ballots were nicely pre-printed by the elections team based on what an ASM told them from the troop web host report.

Now, I'm having ASMs work to re-compile all camping history into Scoutbook with the hope and idea that it'll make it easier to have a consolidated record and should a youth leave our unit for whatever reason we've done them a potential favor in that the activity follows them on Scoutbook vs. getting stuck on our TWH subscription.

 

With a larger Troop, this does require a bit more scrutiny well before the OA selection.  Our selection night is next week, and the SM Corps has been in discussions about who is eligible.  Ultimately the SM's decision, but he has wisely asked for input from the ASM assigned to each Patrol, and our ASM/OA Troop Advisor

[KublaiKen]

I find any rule that says my status as an Arrowman is terminated when my dues aren't paid to be at odds with the permanence of the Obligation. To be clear, I wouldn't wear a flap or attend a function without paying dues, but I am fairly certain the ties of Brotherhood are everlasting, and not ended when the roll of quarters runs out.

[HashTagScouts]

23 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

So, to be clear, are you saying that Joey Scout, who is elected by his unit and goes through the Ordeal (having paid the fee and his membership dues in the local Lodge for the year), and becomes an Arrowman, that he ceases to be an Arrowman when his dues lapse next year for the local Lodge?

He ceases to be an active Arrowman, that is the terminology I would use. 

[Mrjeff]

6 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Although I would withdraw my parent example based on this...

Any registered member of BSA who is an Arrowman may wear his insignia.  He is a member of the Order, regardless of lodge affiliation.

Thats incorrect but do as you please.  Everything in scouting nowadays is only a suggestion and it really doesn't matter what suggestions are followed or interpreted.   As long as noone gets a bad feeling and gets an award for showing up everything is fine.  I would encourage you to research the origins of the customs and traditions of the OA and that organization has the same rules concerning membership status and dues.

[mrjohns2]

8 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

He ceases to be an active Arrowman, that is the terminology I would use. 

I’d agree. They are not a member in good standing with their lodge and this the OA.