Elections for Dummies

[SiouxRanger]

7 hours ago, KublaiKen said:

in our Chapter all candidates are on the ballot and the SM only uses a strike if the candidate is actually elected.

So, as I read this, all scouts who have met the OA qualifications are put on the ballot, and stand for election.

The SM does not exercise the SM's discretion to exclude from the ballot a scout that the SM believes should not be elected.

The doomed scout's name appears on the ballot and the doomed scout knows he was on the ballot. The doomed scout does not know he is doomed.

The scout electorate believes the doomed scout to be a viable candidate because he is on the ballot, and perhaps deems him worthy and elects him to the OA, not knowing that their vote won't count.

And what is the color of the Truth in presenting a ballot to an electorate when the "fix is in?"

After the doomed scout is elected, he is told that he was not elected.  (But he was.)

And what is the color of the Truth in telling a scout he was not elected when he really was elected?

Or maybe the SM has the backbone to tell the doomed scout that he was elected, but that the SM is denying him membership in the OA.  And how is that message delivered?  Such that the Scout has a path forward to qualify next year?. 

And how does the scout reconcile that his fellow scouts thought he was worthy, but the SM is the roadblock?

[KublaiKen]

4 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

So, as I read this, all scouts who have met the OA qualifications are put on the ballot, and stand for election.

The SM does not exercise the SM's discretion to exclude from the ballot a scout that the SM believes should not be elected.

The doomed scout's name appears on the ballot and the doomed scout knows he was on the ballot. The doomed scout does not know he is doomed.

The scout electorate believes the doomed scout to be a viable candidate because he is on the ballot, and perhaps deems him worthy and elects him to the OA, not knowing that their vote won't count.

And what is the color of the Truth in presenting a ballot to an electorate when the "fix is in?"

After the doomed scout is elected, he is told that he was not elected.  (But he was.)

And what is the color of the Truth in telling a scout he was not elected when he really was elected?

Or maybe the SM has the backbone to tell the doomed scout that he was elected, but that the SM is denying him membership in the OA.  And how is that message delivered?  Such that the Scout has a path forward to qualify next year?. 

And how does the scout reconcile that his fellow scouts thought he was worthy, but the SM is the roadblock?

I agree. I can't imagine why I would have submitted a name on the ballot if I didn't intend to allow that candidate to be elected. I was pretty stunned when I was asked, especially because in my distant youth I was a Lodge Unit Elections Committee Chair at one point.

[qwazse]

I might also add: check with the scout. Every now and then you come across one who doesn’t want to be on the ballot. I personally think SM approval includes identifying candidates and letting them know that they may be up for election.

[Mrjeff]

In order for a youth to be elected they must have Scoutmaster approval.  The election team really has no idea who is eligible and they rely on the list provided by the SM.  This approval or disapproval MUST be exercised before the election and its really that simple. 

[HashTagScouts]

26 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

In order for a youth to be elected they must have Scoutmaster approval.  The election team really has no idea who is eligible and they rely on the list provided by the SM.  This approval or disapproval MUST be exercised before the election and its really that simple. 

Agreed.

If a SM feels that a youth is not necessarily living up to the Scout Oath or Scout Law demonstrably, it's a good time to have a SMC with that youth and explain why they aren't going to get on the ballot. The very idea of trying to deny a youth AFTER they have been elected by their troop pretty much is public shaming. Having that conference with the youth, maybe you'd learn some things that are going on in that kids life, and it may just sway your opinion of them that being in the OA just might be an additional outlet for the kid to right themselves. I've seen enough Scouts flourish in leadership positions in OA that just didn't jive well with the youth in their troops (and, after seeing some of the members of their troop within the OA, I get why). 

[Mrjeff]

AMEN!!!!

56 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

Agreed.

If a SM feels that a youth is not necessarily living up to the Scout Oath or Scout Law demonstrably, it's a good time to have a SMC with that youth and explain why they aren't going to get on the ballot. The very idea of trying to deny a youth AFTER they have been elected by their troop pretty much is public shaming. Having that conference with the youth, maybe you'd learn some things that are going on in that kids life, and it may just sway your opinion of them that being in the OA just might be an additional outlet for the kid to right themselves. I've seen enough Scouts flourish in leadership positions in OA that just didn't jive well with the youth in their troops (and, after seeing some of the members of their troop within the OA, I get why). 

 

[Mrjeff]

Thank you so much for that reply!

[MikeS72]

On 1/25/2023 at 9:31 AM, qwazse said:

I might also add: check with the scout. Every now and then you come across one who doesn’t want to be on the ballot. I personally think SM approval includes identifying candidates and letting them know that they may be up for election.

We always ask those who are eligible if they are interested in being on the ballot.  Over the last 5 elections we have had three who declined to be on the ballot.

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, MikeS72 said:

We always ask those who are eligible if they are interested in being on the ballot.  Over the last 5 elections we have had three who declined to be on the ballot.

Since it is not really an election, but rather a selection, now, I do not ask.

What I do tell them is that Order of the Arrow is part of our UNIT program, not the Lodge program!

WE use it as selection for an honor within OUR Troop.

I have talked with many Scouts who fear one of three things:

1.  I'm rejected.  OK, so what? So now you KNOW, rather than walking around guessing.  And that is an indication to you that there MAY be some area for improvement... if you should decide to improve.  Would you rather know, or would you rather guess?

2.  I do not want to be in the OA.  Fine, no one says you have to go through an Ordeal.  But, if you are selected by your fellow Scouts, you now have OPTIONS.

3.  I'll deny someone else the chance (rare). NO!  Because it is not an ELECTION.  It is a SELECTION.  No one else loses a slot because of your being on the Selection Menu (versus ballot).

By the way... and I have said this around here until I am BLUE in the face.  An Arrowman's FIRST duty is to his UNIT!  Not to the lodge!  Nothing obligates you to service to the Lodge.  If you choose to go through the Ordeal induction Ceremony, you are ALWAYS a member of the Order of the Arrow. 

Should you not wish to pay the dues next year, you will not be a member of the Lodge.  So what?  You still may wear your sash at any and all OA observances.  Just take off the flap...

Edited February 6, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[Mrjeff]

4 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Since it is not really an election, but rather a selection, now, I do not ask.

What I do tell them is that Order of the Arrow is part of our UNIT program, not the Lodge program!

WE use it as selection for an honor within OUR Troop.

I have talked with many Scouts who fear one of three things:

1.  I'm rejected.  OK, so what? So now you KNOW, rather than walking around guessing.  And that is an indication to you that there MAY be some area for improvement... if you should decide to improve.  Would you rather know, or would you rather guess?

2.  I do not want to be in the OA.  Fine, no one says you have to go through an Ordeal.  But, if you are selected by your fellow Scouts, you now have OPTIONS.

3.  I'll deny someone else the chance (rare). NO!  Because it is not an ELECTION.  It is a SELECTION.  No one else loses a slot because of your being on the Selection Menu (versus ballot).

By the way... and I have said this around here until I am BLUE in the face.  An Arrowman's FIRST duty is to his UNIT!  Not to the lodge!  Nothing obligates you to service to the Lodge.  If you choose to go through the Ordeal induction Ceremony, you are ALWAYS a member of the Order of the Arrow. 

Should you not wish to pay the dues next year, you will not be a member of the Lodge.  So what?  You still may wear your sash at any and all OA observances.  Just take off the flap...

I'm not sure where some of these points come from, but several are incorrect on so many levels.  For example the OA Sash is only worrn at OA events or while conducting OA business.  You can breathe because your correct that ones first responsible to their unit and just like most things in life a person gets out of the OA to the level they contribute.  The OA should work in conjunction with the units to enhance the Scouting experience and not compete with each other.  Oh well, that's enough for now.

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

4 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

For example the OA Sash is only worrn at OA events or while conducting OA business.

No one said otherwise.  Read the post... 

 

9 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

You still may wear your sash at any and all OA observances.

That means events and business...

What other points are incorrect??

[KublaiKen]

So disturbed as to why the election team had asked me about strikes after the vote, I asked about this, and after a delay brought on by Klondike, I have an answer. It turns out this is NOT how our Chapter conducts elections, and this was an error on the part of the newly-pressed-into-service election team, that will now  be corrected. I thought it might be one more new thing.

So my apologies for confusion g the discussion with my incorrect information, and thanks to all who helped me fix it.

[Mrjeff]

4 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

No one said otherwise.  Read the post... 

 

That means events and business...

What other points are incorrect??

Ok, its a pretty simple train to follow:  attend the ordeal, complete the ordeal, remain active by paying dues, attend events, wear Sash.  Or attend the ordeal, complete the ordeal, don't remain active by not paying dues, don't attend lodge events, no Sash. Obviously I did read the post and perhaps you should read the mountains of literature available explaining the purpose and mission of the OA.   In fact it's now impossible to register for an event like NOAC unless you are an active member of your lodge.  Should I continue?

[Mrjeff]

53 minutes ago, KublaiKen said:

So disturbed as to why the election team had asked me about strikes after the vote, I asked about this, and after a delay brought on by Klondike, I have an answer. It turns out this is NOT how our Chapter conducts elections, and this was an error on the part of the newly-pressed-into-service election team, that will now  be corrected. I thought it might be one more new thing.

So my apologies for confusion g the discussion with my incorrect information, and thanks to all who helped me fix it.

Its not my place, but I apologize for the confusion created by the election team.   Unfortunately its common for new members to take on tasks that they aren't really prepared for and can only duplicate their own experience,  weather right or wrong..

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, Mrjeff said:

Ok, its a pretty simple train to follow:  attend the ordeal, complete the ordeal, remain active by paying dues, attend events, wear Sash.  Or attend the ordeal, complete the ordeal, don't remain active by not paying dues, don't attend lodge events, no Sash. Obviously I did read the post and perhaps you should read the mountains of literature available explaining the purpose and mission of the OA.   In fact it's now impossible to register for an event like NOAC unless you are an active member of your lodge.  Should I continue?

LOL

Yes, you should continue after reading the following:

Let's start with the Purpose and Mission of the OA: https://oa-bsa.org/about/mission-purpose

Mission & Purpose

 

For over 100 years, the Order of the Arrow (OA) has recognized Scouts and Scouters who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives.  This recognition provides encouragement for others to live these ideals as well.  Arrowmen are known for maintaining camping traditions and spirit, promoting year-round and long term resident camping, and providing cheerful service to others.  OA service, activities, adventures, and training for youth and adults are models of quality leadership development and programming that enrich and help to extend Scouting to America's youth.

Mission

The mission of the Order of the Arrow is to fulfill its purpose as an integral part of the Boy Scouts of America through positive youth leadership under the guidance of selected capable adults.

Purpose

As Scouting’s National Honor Society, our purpose is to:

• Recognize those who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives and through that recognition cause others to conduct themselves in a way that warrants similar recognition.
• Promote camping, responsible outdoor adventure, and environmental stewardship as essential components of every Scout’s experience, in the unit, year-round, and in summer camp.
• Develop leaders with the willingness, character, spirit and ability to advance the activities of their units, our Brotherhood, Scouting, and ultimately our nation.
• Crystallize the Scout habit of helpfulness into a life purpose of leadership in cheerful service to others.

 Please show me ANY statement in the above that membership requires a Scout to do anything with the Lodge after completing his induction. 😜 

Here's another reference:  https://oa-bsa.org/article/ask-chairman-can-members-who-are-not-dues-paid-wear-lodge-flap

Please note, "An Order of the Arrow member can always wear their sash and the Universal Arrow Ribbon once they have completed the induction. However, wearing a lodge flap indicates that their current dues are paid in the specific lodge that the flap represents. So, if the individual has not paid their dues, they should remove the flap from their uniform."

If you actually bothered to read the "mountains of literature" with intellectual honesty, you could only come to the conclusion that you are mistaken.

And I agree with your statement about NOAC, but that is irrelevant.  I made absolutely no pronouncements about NOAC or any other lodge, section, or National events like that.

OA business includes unit OA elections, where any Arrowman may wear his sash, regardless of his current lodge affiliation.

OA events at Summer Camp would also fit the bill.  OA days, OA Ice Cream Socials, Call-outs at the campfire, etc. etc. etc.  An Arrowman may wear his sash for those events, regardless of his current lodge affiliation.

Parents who are Arrowmen, and no longer affiliated with BSA, but observing the induction of their Scout at an Ordeal may wear their sash while attending, regardless of their current lodge affiliation.

You must make a distinction between being an Arrowman and being a lodge member.  They are two separate statuses.  Once inducted, you are ALWAYS a member of the Order of the Arrow.  Once you let your dues lapse in a lodge, you are no longer a "member in good standing", but retain your status as an Arrowman.  The honor was given by an Arrowman's unit, not by the Lodge.

Please continue, because you said "several" of my original assertions were incorrect.  You have yet to name any that were incorrect.

I'll leave you with two thoughts that apply in the situation:

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

"When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest."

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter
Added parent example