Requesting advice on how to handle this situation

[Armymutt]

Our pack established a budget in June.  Some leaders failed to attend, but the proposed budget was sent out weeks before the meeting and feedback was solicited.  None was received.  The budget is used to determine the dues every Scout pays outside of the national and council fees.  It buys required advancement, rank patches, pinewood derby cars, and covers decorations, refreshments, and any venue fees we plan to incur.  At our leaders meeting yesterday, the AOL DL drops on us that the pack should buy the AOLs plaques for cross over at a cost of $45 plus tax and shipping each.  The total AOL crossover budget is $35 to cover decorations.  The bylaws specifically state that the pack only buys the required advancement items for Scouts, but that Scouts may use credit from fundraising to buy additional items related to Scouting.  Obviously, I disagreed with this purchase, especially since 2/3 of the Scouts did no fundraising this popcorn season.  Ironically, one of the parents of an AOL was very vocal in disapproving my recommendation that each Scout sell $1000 worth of popcorn in order to fund their Scouting year.  The same parent, also a leader, told us that $35 was too little to budget for the AOL crossover and that he wasn't at the budget meeting.  The implication was that it was done in secret.  This is our first AOL crossover since 2021 and my first as a leader in the pack - I was a new ACM last time and the AOL den planned and executed the last one.  We have a very mixed pack when it comes to financial capability, so my goal is to minimize cost of participation and maximize fundraising opportunities.  I have a really hard time looking at a parent who has to swallow their pride and fill out financial hardship paperwork to waive national and council fees, and tell them that the dues we must charge is for the bare minimum to have a good program while we are padding the dues to purchase gifts.  The argument for buying the plaques is that their eldest son received one when he crossed over.  At the time, I had very little history in the pack with no involvement in the finances.  When I took over as Cubmaster and persuaded (cajoled) my wife into being the committee chair, the pack had a negative balance, all advancement and pinewood derby cars were purchased by me, the district donated $450 toward recharter and the leader who wants to buy these plaques had to put in $300 of his own money.  There was zero transparency in the pack finances.  No one could produce a spreadsheet indicating how the money was spent.  The pack sold $19k in popcorn in 2019.  We sold about that much in 2021 and 2022 combined.  As it stands, the pack is financially solvent, but it does not have much more than $1000 in surplus funds from abandoned accounts due to Scout departures and donations at the popcorn sales booths.  The bank account cannot fall below $500 or we lose it.  That $500 is not much of a cushion if we need to upgrade our Square readers, buy shade tents or tables for popcorn sales, or cover popcorn losses.

Personally, I think that the AOL den should pay for their own plaques if that is what they want to do.  It goes against my integrity as a Scout to lie to parents and tell them that the plaques are essential.  Barring that, I'm open to assessing an additional dues fee to all Scouts who were present during popcorn sales to fund these plaques.  They all had the opportunity to raise funds, versus the kids who just joined.  That will increase the spring dues from $45 to $60.  This is on top of the $156 that they just paid for recharter.  Makes for a pretty hefty bill right after Christmas just to buy gifts.  Even an Eagle Scout presentation box only costs $35 and my troop didn't cover that.

[Eagle94-A1]

STICK. TO. YOUR. BUDGET! (yes that is me yelling, not at you but the situation).

You had a budget meeting, it was open and they didn't show up. If needed produce the emails with the proposed budget, invitation to attedn the meeting, and the minutes from the meeting with approval from those there. $45 per plaque is expensive IMHO.

IDEAS FOR THE FUTURE (caps to note edit)

Now, some options I have seen. One pack I was with had a guy with a woodshop, and he made AOL shaped plaques. Arrows were purchased and made by the OA chapter. Only thing they paid for was the arrows, as that was an OA fundraiser they knew in advance and budgeted for. I think it was $10/arrow and painted to show achievements.

Another pack  used Hobby Lobby stuff,   https://www.hobbylobby.com/Crafts-Hobbies/Wood-Crafting/Unfinished-Wood/Arrow-Wood-Shape/p/80826805 or  https://www.hobbylobby.com/Crafts-Hobbies/Wood-Crafting/Unfinished-Wood/Rustic-Wood-Arrow-With-Jute/p/80772806 , added hooks for a decorated arrow that I made. I think it was about $50 for everything which included arrowheads (buy more than you need to get a good selection)

As for the $45 plaque, My youngest has one of those. It's nice, but wasn't necessary. Because the pack pushed Cross Over to February instead of late December, first week back of January, we got charged the full dues for the year, with the understanding that the dues paid for the plaque.

 

 

Edited January 8, 2023 by Eagle94-A1
Forgot to add IDEAS FOR FUTURE and info about arrows

[Armymutt]

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 Because the pack pushed Cross Over to February instead of late December, first week back of January, we got charged the full dues for the year, with the understanding that the dues paid for the plaque.

 

 

What did your dues cover?  We split ours up for convenience, but the only thing a December crossover will save is $14.30 to cover B&G, Rank Advancement Ceremony, and PWD costs.  Everything else will still have to be paid since the Scout receives the full benefit of the program for the calendar year.  It's not like they only get half their rank and pins, adult coverage and the benefits of having a unit.

[Eagle94-A1]

Dues covered registration, awards, and other supplies. Pack was old school in that Cross Over was not in conjunction with Blue and Gold. So those who had the Cross Over Ceremony in December or January actually registered with the troops they were joining, not the pack. Ceremony was just that, ceremonial.

When youngest Crossed Over, some Cubs were behind for a Dec/Jan. Cross Over due to baseball. Plus Cub Scout Day Camp, which helped a lot with advancement, was cancelled by council that year because they did not want to send anyone to NCS (we later learned the council was in the red, but that is a different story). A few folks went to an out of council CSDC, which was a heck of a lot better than our district's, including the ones I ran. (a lot more support from the council). So the decision was to push Cross Over to BnG that year. My youngest stopped going to den meetings, and instead went to troop meetings as a guest starting in December because he was A. finished everything and B. chomping at the bit to be a Scout with his brothers. The $60 fee ( $72 with BOYS' LIFE) covered registration, AOL awards and plaque.  That was before the major jump in price though

[InquisitiveScouter]

Plaques aren't essential. They are a "want" versus a "need."

If they aren't in the existing budget, then this is a Committee issue, if there is a push to fund this from the AOL parents. 

IF the Committee votes to fund this, then they have to solve the problem of how to fund it or come up with plaques.  There's a million ways to skin that cat.

But, if you are the CM (??) then this really isn't your issue.  If you are CM, then you don't have a vote 😜

Past history is just that... past history.  That they were funded in the past is irrelevant to the issue.

We did plaques similar to @Eagle94-A1.  One parent made the plaques.  (Is there a wood hobby shop on the base??)  

BTW, my 17 y.o. Eagle Scout does not hold his AOL plaque as one of his "treasured possessions."  He has many many more treasured items from his years as a Scout.

 

 

 

[MikeS72]

In the years that I have been involved with our pack, the AOL's have done both plaques and banners, and they have always been funded by the AOL and their parent.  We have never included either in the pack budget.

[scoutldr]

Back in the Dark Ages, when B-P was a sub-leftenant, our AOL crossovers got that...the AOL patch, rank card and certificate.  The receiving troop usually provided a troop necker and slide.  Quite sufficient in my estimation.  Wish them well and send them on their way.  I guarantee the adults see this as way more important than the Scouts do.

[Armymutt]

7 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Plaques aren't essential. They are a "want" versus a "need."

If they aren't in the existing budget, then this is a Committee issue, if there is a push to fund this from the AOL parents. 

IF the Committee votes to fund this, then they have to solve the problem of how to fund it or come up with plaques.  There's a million ways to skin that cat.

But, if you are the CM (??) then this really isn't your issue.  If you are CM, then you don't have a vote 😜

Past history is just that... past history.  That they were funded in the past is irrelevant to the issue.

We did plaques similar to @Eagle94-A1.  One parent made the plaques.  (Is there a wood hobby shop on the base??)  

BTW, my 17 y.o. Eagle Scout does not hold his AOL plaque as one of his "treasured possessions."  He has many many more treasured items from his years as a Scout.

 

 

 

I'm the CC now, so it's squarely in my realm.  I'm glad that I'm not the only one who thinks that it is up to the AOL parents to come up with any gifts they want to give their Scout.  I've been asking for the cross over plan since September and this was the first time anyone mentioned something resembling a plan regarding this event.  We're supposed to execute it in a month and a half!  I think we're establishing a new precedent - the AOL DL and parents are responsible for planning the event.  If it is garbage, it's on them.  I spent the past 4 hours of my drive back to TN getting a rough outline in my mind of my son's AOL crossover in 2 years.  Probably going to have to tamp it down a bit.  Electrically fired smudge pots lighting up as someone reads off the points of the Scout Law might be a bit overboard.   

[mrjohns2]

14 hours ago, scoutldr said:

Back in the Dark Ages, when B-P was a sub-leftenant, our AOL crossovers got that...the AOL patch, rank card and certificate. 

I agree. Many people want to known what gifs to give scouts, want mementos, etc. This effort isn’t needed as it is already baked into the program.  
 

We have done plaques, and have asked the AOLs to pay if they want one. 

[fred8033]

There are rules and then rules.  A published budget is a useful baseline, but unless everyone buys into the planning, it's really not agreed. 

Sometimes treading lightly really helps.  I know in the past, our unit has reimbursed some groups more than others "just to keep the peace".  Specifically, some den leaders got reimbursed and I (and a few other leaders) did not submit our expenses because it was our choice to spend that money.  If it was core (advancement, books, etc), I'd always submit expenses.  If it was decorations, food, optional stuff that "I choose", I often would not.  

Is there a path that keeps the peace and that can work toward establishing more clear rules for the future?

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

13 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

There are rules and then rules.  A published budget is a useful baseline, but unless everyone buys into the planning, it's really not agreed. 

Sometimes treading lightly really helps.  I know in the past, our unit has reimbursed some groups more than others "just to keep the peace".  Specifically, some den leaders got reimbursed and I (and a few other leaders) did not submit our expenses because it was our choice to spend that money.  If it was core (advancement, books, etc), I'd always submit expenses.  If it was decorations, food, optional stuff that "I choose", I often would not.  

Is there a path that keeps the peace and that can work toward establishing more clear rules for the future?

 

Yes, @fred8033, you can send him the money via Zelle!!  That would keep the peace 😜 

We do not know "how much" communication @Armymutt did with the Committee in developing the budget.  If he sent adequate notice, and had a quorum to make and decide on the budget, then move forward with the budget you have.  Sure, you can allow for an amendment, but only through the Committee...

@Armymutt, do you have another Committee meeting scheduled, with enough time to address the question and deal with the funding, if the Committee decides to amend the budget?  This is the way to "keep the peace."  Don't be the SINGLE person who holds this up.  If needed, hold a Committee meeting via Zoom, and, if (and only if) you get a quorum to participate, then address the question.

And ONLY Committee members get to vote on it.  Parents and DLs can give input, but drive the group to a decision.  And, if the decide in a way you you don't like... well, you are a good Armymutt... you know how to take directives and follow them without liking them.

BTW, we change our budget several times during the year of execution.  There are always unplanned expenditures and questions that come up.  We build consensus, and make a decision.  We never try to make everyone happy.  If it works out that way, great.

And also BTW... as Committee Chair, you might consider not casting a vote, unless it is to break a tie.

Edited January 9, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[mrjohns2]

2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

And ONLY Committee members get to vote on it.  Parents and DLs can give input, but drive the group to a decision. 

People have pointed out that current documentation says DLs are members of the committee. I don’t like it, but that is what I have heard. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

10 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

People have pointed out that current documentation says DLs are members of the committee. I don’t like it, but that is what I have heard. 

Source?

[malraux]

13 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Source?

Quote

The Cubmaster, any assistant Cubmasters, and den leaders or other representatives of each Cub Scout den also serve on the committee. Their inclusion ensures excellent communication and planning between all leaders and committee members.

https://pdscouting.wpenginepowered.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Cub-Scout-Leader-Training-Facilitator-Guide.pdf page 35.

[malraux]

FWIW, the Cub Leader Guide and leader trainings do not grant the right of voting to members of the pack committee. The different committee roles are about accomplishing various activities. The only voting described is for the events on the annual calendar.