Evaluating Girls Joining Scouts BSA -- Part One

[Cburkhardt]

I hope one of our readers who has a firm grasp on membership numbers could discuss the big picture on the membership decline.  There is such a tangle of issues that will have contributed to the decline (especially the bankruptcy and its many impacts)  that I am unable to authoritatively opine on whether adding all girl dens/troops was a net membership add or subtraction.  All I can do is share my actual experience as a “big troop” scoutmaster

When we started four years ago, we were the only girl troop in our district. We were not always welcomed and I personally absorbed a lot of negative comment from a select group of uber-traditionalists.  When I took 24 girls to summer camp for the first time, the leaders of the troop next door openly despised us and me personally and continuously registered unjustified, piddling  complaints.  Our girls were sometimes harassed in their merit badge classes.  Despite this, we came in as runner-up for troop of the week and won the camp-wide games — and none of that was my doing.  The youth just organized themselves well.

Four years down the road all of that is a distant memory.  All of the traditionalists are still there  and we (and 2 additional girl troops) are still growing.  They have accepted us because they see the success.  My speculation is that there were few who left our movement because “somewhere out there is an all-girl troop participating in our program”.   None of our district’s troops folded or downsized as a result (although some were lost through COVID or churches upset about the bankruptcy).  The overwhelming bulk of criticism about girl troops I read in the media (and I read every article) came from outside the BSA.  This was mainly from columnists who inaccurately proclaimed we were fully co-ed, former members who were part of Trail Life, and leaders of GSUSA above the unit level.  The media firestorm over girls is long over and the only remaining discussion is now confined to hyper-bitter commentary from anti-BSA folks on mostly-unread corners of social media.
 

My speculation is that the effect of adding girl dens and troops has not caused a membership loss and probably netted us a gain.  Last summer girls comprised about 1/6 of the youth participating during our week.  That has to mean something positive.

[PACAN]

Girls account for 15% of all youth which is up from 9% 2 years ago.  This could mean more boys left the program.

Total membership is still down 13% from 2 years ago

So adding girls would appear to have kept membership from being a worst disaster.

Two observations I have heard are the blanket extension was solely for the purpose of Eagle Scout and not fair to the boys and every picture you see of a girl Eagle Scout has a full sash of MBs making some wonder what else the girl was doing other than scouts.  A full sash would mean a MB every 2 weeks.

 

[Cburkhardt]

Full Sash of Merit Badges.   In our four years we have had only one youth member like this.  While she did not earn every badge, she earned most of them over four years.  She is an outstanding Scout who prioritizes her scouting experiences over other extracurricular activities and is simply deeply entrenched in the program.

Blanket Extension.  I've already stated my view that it was unnecessary for the roll-out and caused those of us then-forming the all-girl units an unnecessary complication.    I speculate that it might have been devised as a PR move.  It might also have been a response to some individual legal situations.  While unnecessary, I don't think it was a significant roll-out problem. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

On 12/23/2022 at 8:13 AM, Cburkhardt said:

I hope one of our readers who has a firm grasp on membership numbers could discuss the big picture on the membership decline.  There is such a tangle of issues that will have contributed to the decline (especially the bankruptcy and its many impacts)  that I am unable to authoritatively opine on whether adding all girl dens/troops was a net membership add or subtraction.  All I can do is share my actual experience as a “big troop” scoutmaster

When we started four years ago, we were the only girl troop in our district. We were not always welcomed and I personally absorbed a lot of negative comment from a select group of uber-traditionalists.  When I took 24 girls to summer camp for the first time, the leaders of the troop next door openly despised us and me personally and continuously registered unjustified, piddling  complaints.  Our girls were sometimes harassed in their merit badge classes.  Despite this, we came in as runner-up for troop of the week and won the camp-wide games — and none of that was my doing.  The youth just organized themselves well.

Four years down the road all of that is a distant memory.  All of the traditionalists are still there  and we (and 2 additional girl troops) are still growing.  They have accepted us because they see the success.  My speculation is that there were few who left our movement because “somewhere out there is an all-girl troop participating in our program”.   None of our district’s troops folded or downsized as a result (although some were lost through COVID or churches upset about the bankruptcy).  The overwhelming bulk of criticism about girl troops I read in the media (and I read every article) came from outside the BSA.  This was mainly from columnists who inaccurately proclaimed we were fully co-ed, former members who were part of Trail Life, and leaders of GSUSA above the unit level.  The media firestorm over girls is long over and the only remaining discussion is now confined to hyper-bitter commentary from anti-BSA folks on mostly-unread corners of social media.
 

My speculation is that the effect of adding girl dens and troops has not caused a membership loss and probably netted us a gain.  Last summer girls comprised about 1/6 of the youth participating during our week.  That has to mean something positive.

Aviators have a saying....

"The flak is heaviest when you are over the target!"

Although another iteration of that is:

"If you're taking flak, you're over the target."

Edited December 25, 2022 by InquisitiveScouter

[InquisitiveScouter]

On 12/23/2022 at 8:13 AM, Cburkhardt said:

There is such a tangle of issues

Yes, there have been so many "levers" pulled over the last decade or so, that it is virtually impossible to sort out what the top detrimental effects on membership numbers have been.  So many factors (in no particular order): 

- The downward trend in families seeking out long lasting group associations (and the commitments that come with them.)  (Primarily religious institutions, but I believe Scouting is affected as well.)

- The trend in schools to have extracurricular activities last much, much longer: sports, band and choruses, theater, dance, clubs, etc. etc. etc.  If my kids had chosen such, they could be involved in school-sponsored extracurriculars year round.

- The trend in families to schedule out every moment of the day with some activity for their kids, which drives them to seek out additional opportunities above the school-sponsored stuff: marital arts, and travel sports teams are big around here...

- The general downward trend for Americans to trust institutions  https://news.gallup.com/poll/394283/confidence-institutions-down-average-new-low.aspx

- Fallout from the pandemic

- Inflation (and wages not keeping pace with it.)

- Growth in abilities (and attempts) to use the internet to fill the need for social connection  (although it doesn't work).  https://www.sogolytics.com/blog/how-has-technology-affected-social-interaction/

And I'm sure there are more factors...

I believe it will take another year or two to have better hindsight as to what has happened.

Edited December 26, 2022 by InquisitiveScouter

[AltadenaCraig]

On 12/21/2022 at 3:37 PM, Cburkhardt said:

  Any Other Thoughts on the Roll-Out? 

In all candor I have to admit our Linked Troop resembles several of the flaws @Cburkhardt has enumerated (undersized, resembles a 'patrol' more than 'troop').  And I wholeheartedly agree with @DuctTape that the Linked Troop rollout was less than ideal.  Nevertheless I feel compelled to share a couple of our Linked Troop's successes if only to ensure we don't mistakenly "throw the baby out with the bathwater" in our collective search for improvement.

First, our Girls' Troop scouters benefit greatly from the camaraderie & experience among the scouters of the Boys' Troop and Linked Troop Committee.  Our "Scoutmaster Corps" (SMs & ASMs) meet monthly offsite to discuss the recent PLC meetings and coordinate required support.  Accordingly, every one of our campouts has included girls & female scouters - including high-adventure trips to Philmont & Northern Tier - where the girls' "troop" camps separately, albeit close-by (think separate patrol campsites) and all adults share a separate nearby campsite.  Our girls' troop scouters are developing their high-adventure skillset (backpacking & rappelling) so they appreciate the close relationship with the boys' troop scouters.  Otherwise, I doubt our girls' troop would exist.

Second - and this may suggest a marketing opportunity - while we're careful during "high intensity" events (hike-in, campsite setup, meal-prep, teardown, etc.) that our girls' & boys' troops operate separately, something wonderful happens during "down time" (e.g. cracker barrel) - our scouts come together such it resembles a youth group.  Our boys & girls are thus ensured their own scout experiences during strenuous events (and can suffer the usual meltdowns during without lasting embarrassment), but also accrue the benefits of interaction.

The whole thing remains a work-in-progress IMHO, but I remain a strong supporter of our Linked Troop and am hopeful that as we emerge from Co-VID both our boys' and girls' troops will thrive.

[Cburkhardt]

Altadena:  I'll bet over 90% of our girl members in Scouts BSA are in linked troops, so please do not take my observations as "anti-linked" in any way.  It sounds like your two troops are doing a great job of operating the linked concept as it was envisioned.  My first question on evaluating the presence of girls in Scouts BSA focuses on the roll-out process, and my key observation is that those who rolled-out the program focused almost exclusively on forming linked units.  The stand-alone troops I am aware of were formed without much (if any) assistance from district or council folks.  I think more stand alone units might have been formed if the work plan was not so narrowly focused.  Everyone will be interested in hearing about your experiences on the interaction between your girl and boy members in the separate troops.  Early in the process there were some real "over the top" comments that any interaction whatsoever would "ruin" the entire program for the boys.  I don't observe that to be the case when our girls informally interact with boy troops at summer camp and at camporees.  I encourage you to post such comments or others about your fine troops in response to Question #2 (unit quality).     

[RememberSchiff]

Feb 1, 2019-2024, 5 year anniversary of admitting girls into Scouts BSA.

"This February marks five years since the Boy Scouts of America, now called Scouts BSA, first started admitting girls into the BSA program. Since 2019, around 6,000 female scouts have advanced to Eagle.

...Today there are more than 45,000 female scouts in the program across the country."

"Girls have done a terrific job and shown that they can rock a 50-mile hike, just as their brothers can," says Kayleen Deatherage, a Scouts BSA National Executive Board (NEB) member. Deatherage leads the board's task force for diversity, equity, and inclusion."

Source:

https://www.mainepublic.org/maine/2024-02-22/5-years-after-admitting-girls-scouts-bsa-in-maine-faces-new-challenges-amid-achievements

Edited February 23 by RememberSchiff

[skeptic]

2 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Feb 1, 2019-2024, 5 year anniversary of admitting girls into Scouts BSA.

"This February marks five years since the Boy Scouts of America, now called Scouts BSA, first started admitting girls into the BSA program. Since 2019, around 6,000 female scouts have advanced to Eagle.

...Today there are more than 45,000 female scouts in the program across the country."

"Girls have done a terrific job and shown that they can rock a 50-mile hike, just as their brothers can," says Kayleen Deatherage, a Scouts BSA National Executive Board (NEB) member. Deatherage leads the board's task force for diversity, equity, and inclusion."

Source:

https://www.mainepublic.org/maine/2024-02-22/5-years-after-admitting-girls-scouts-bsa-in-maine-faces-new-challenges-amid-achievements

With the emphasis on the Citizenship in Society MB, as well as the struggles to find membership in small units, the comment made regarding Coed units is important.  I hope that National will recognize that as something needed, while still allowing separate units if they so choose.  Our unit has struggled for years due to location and population changes, and we tried to generate a girl unit alone, but it folded fairly soon.  We have more girls in our connect pack than boys, and they "want" to join the troop, as it is, but as a patrol.  Personally, I think that is the best avenue to use going forward.  Stop trying to adhere to biased studies related to adolescents and genders mixing, and simply assure YP is solid and in place.  

[InquisitiveScouter]

@RichardB,

You have any contacts at National who think likewise on the issue of co-ed units? or "unofficial" insights? 

[skeptic]

18 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

@RichardB,

You have any contacts at National who think likewise on the issue of co-ed units? or "unofficial" insights? 

There is a lot of hearsay that is out there of units that are simply doing it  But I do not know of anything directly from National.  It is simply logical and common sense.  Having done summer camp with girl troops, and also COR, there is no real issue except from the fringe that cannot find change as positive and making sense, or who are frozen in some outdated concpet of genders somehow noncompatible.  As noted, YP is the key, and that has always been the case.  

[RichardB]

On 2/23/2024 at 1:21 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

@RichardB,

You have any contacts at National who think likewise on the issue of co-ed units? or "unofficial" insights? 

Not sure what likewise means in this context.   However on the subject co-ed Scouts BSA units my response would be that there are not any co-ed options for Scouts BSA units.  Each unit has its own charter and would need to follow the requirements for that charter.      Rolling your own "whatever" and calling it Scouting is a risk I'd not suggest anyone take with youth or their standing with the organization.    

The SAFE checklists specifically addresses this:   https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/safe/

Under Supervision:   

• Knowing and delivering the program of the Boy Scouts of America with integrity.

As does the Scouter Code of Conduct.  https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/bsa-scouter-code-of-conduct/

92 % + of youth in America are not involved in the movement.    Organizing, running sustainable units and growing the movement is one of the five imperatives to move forward.   I'm not aware that going co-ed is on the radar.  

[skeptic]

While it may not be obvious, it certainly is on the radar.  Of course, we already have coed in cubbing, many units mixing boys and girls in the various Den levels due to needing leaders and keeping it working, and there have been few issues from what I have seen or read.  Granted, some do have separate girl Dens, but usually mixed then for advancement.  

Of course, we also know that Exploring, Ventures, and Sea Scouts are all coed.  So the truth seems obvious to me, and they just are making it more difficult to keep membership in small units.  So, on paper girl and boy troops with the same sponsor, but in reality meeting together for most of the program for leadership and efficiency.  

[DannyG]

In my experience, all of the girls BSA troops in my area are "linked" with a boys troop. As in, they share the same charter org and adult committee. They register as two units: there is a boys scoutmaster and a girls scoutmaster. But mostly the adult leaders cross-register to both troops.  At least one of the adult leaders of the girls troop is female. Each troop elects its own SPL and PLC. But they really meet together and plan activities together. They go on the same monthly camping trips, with the boys troop on one side of the campsite and the girls troop on the other. Adults camp in the middle. They share the same equipment and resources. Sometimes the boys and girls decide to go on separate activities at the patrol level... But really they operate as if they are one unit with separate boys and girls patrols. On paper they are two distinct units.

[skeptic]

And that is my general observation as well.  Make it easier and stop the subterfuge.  Coed with proper YP in serious use.  I suspect it would just make it easier to stabilize small units and maybe even advance the overall program considerably.  Listen to the youth, not the so called experts that do surveys and studies with bias to begin.  Reality is that youth will find their own way if given the opportunities and proper supervision.  As a long story I have been reading notes, we need to stop infantilizing young teens and preteens.