Part 2... or 3... whatever - The Committee Meeting

[mrjohns2]

1 hour ago, RainShine said:

We can forget it if you prefer.

I don’t mind. The whole thing makes my stomach turn. As someone with strong opinions, I fear I could head down that road by pissing people off. Not by any violation, just by not being a savvy operator. 

[Eagledad]

As a SM, I was called at least once a week by a parent with an opinion of something they saw that bothered them. Sometimes more than 1 a week, rarely less. And you would be amazed of what bothers parents. Every SM has a strong opinion to someone, especially if they firm with how the program is run.

All I can say is if SMs, or strong leaders, don’t learn the art of listening, they will have continued frustration and drama. Add the skills of patience and humility because sometimes the SM, or strong leader, is wrong.

Barry

[RainShine]

I.WANT.HIM.GONE          dun dun DUNN!

Last week I got a call from Committee Chair, great guy. He told me he was expecting Mr. Pillar at Committee that night. He's not on Committee, he's listed as ASM. 

I wasnt at the Committee meeting, of course. I was at the troop meeting. But apparently they took care of their other business then gave Mr. P the floor. I was told he started with I.WANT.HIM.GONE and then proceeded to attack me. They listened to him. Apparently he brought up the summer camp episode, the long ago, never explained suspicions from a Webelo mom, and the fact that a Scout and his dad went to another troop because of me. He also said I patted a Scout on the shoulder, of which I have no recollection. He suggested that there were people at the church that would take on SM.

Committee told him, if there are adults at church that want to participate in the troop, they should contact the Committee. Of the past accusations, the Committee told him he should file a complaint at the time. Why didnt he file? It would be negligent to have something and not file, so where was the complaint? There was the summer camp thing, which Council said had been dropped. They said patting on shoulder was noted, but didnt cross a line. They told him they're not firing me.

So this fellow... I mean, when the last SM retired (what a great guy he was), I wrote a big letter to the Committee putting my hat in the ring. Not only would I do it, I wanted to do it. No one else applied. I later saw Mr. Pillar, acknowledged my application, and he said Yeah Im too busy. Nevertheless, I really wonder if he wants the role of Scoutmaster. I wonder, speculating, if he was hurt that he wasnt begged to do it.

Another thing, while we're speculating. At summer camp, he led an effort during a camp event. It went really well and our Scouts liked it. Great job. But I noticed... he selected all the guys that participated, and they all went to the church. Its just something I noticed. The werent the oldest guys, or the best Scouts, First Class, or any other commonality. Then, during the Committee meeting, he said there were people at the church that would do it (be SM). I know the church is part of his life, so I'm guessing he wants the troop to be a little church island. And no, I dont go to church there.

There is something else, but I dont want to create a part 4, jeez.  At a summer camp years ago, he publicly accused a Scout of stealing. The stolen goods were later found, fallen behind a cot. The Scout was mortified. I was away, I had to go into town to buy stuff. But when I returned the campsite was quiet and weird. And I overheard one Scout say to another, That was bullshit. I later found out what happened, and a ASM told me, of the SM role, "it cant be Mr. Pillar". It caused a wound in the troop. Mr. P never publicly apologized to that Scout.

You know we like to talk about train wrecks. No-one talks much about the trains that delivered their cargo safely, that arrived on time, etc. In fact, the Scouts and families like me. A lot. I've read some stuff on this forum, terrible parents (why isnt my kid Eagle yet!), terrible this and that. Except for this fellow, we all get along pretty well. I dont get any of that bad parent stuff. We have great parents. I told them, for instance, we needed a deep bench of registered adults, and they went and got registered. 

The Scouts are, well, kind of rowdy sometimes... not perfect. They're not the most skilled troop, okay? my bad. But they're great guys. They listen to my input, mostly. And, I mean, theres no trouble. They're, like, you know, Boy Scouts! We got guys ranking up. We go to new places. We got new families coming aboard. Our troop is small but the future is bright.

A group of guys asked me how long I will be SM. I promised to continue until X Y and Z become Eagle. X and Y are Life, and Z is Star. So, really, not that terribly much longer. I think X and Y will Eagle by summer. It could take that Star Scout another year or more. And then another Scout overheard, who just became First Class, he was like Me too, me too! I did not promise him, but he remembers it differently 🙂

Whew, I cant believe I said all this to you folks.

[qwazse]

Strangers on the internet… great shoulders to cry on.

Tell your CC that it’s time to start the search for your replacement. Before passing the patch, you want to get one or more of these great parents trained … possibly including Wood Badge or Powderhorn.  That takes time.

Keep working for smiles.

[InquisitiveScouter]

Thanks for opening up your story.  I think you have a good outcome so far.  And it seems as though the Committee stood up for you. (?)  That means they may see things in sort of the same light as you do.  Recommend you have a private chat with the other two Key 3 to confirm.

As someone mentioned in your previous thread, a good idea is to always have an adult buddy with you.  This has saved my behind several times over the past years, in different ways.  IMHO, due to increased screen time (vs face-to-face time), young people (not just Scouts) are becoming less proficient at reading people and interpreting context and meaning.  This means more of these situations are likely to appear.

Any time I am doing stuff with Scouts (other than driving), I try have another adult joined at the hip.  It is difficult, and ofttimes impossible to have them side-by-side (rather than present at the event doing other things).  But, if you can get to that point, you will find you are less concerned about issues like this recurring.

 

 

[mrjohns2]

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

And it seems as though the Committee stood up for you. (?)  That means they may see things in sort of the same light as you do.  Recommend you have a private chat with the other two Key 3 to confirm.

Good advice. I’d also suggest the committee meet on a on-going basis when the SM can attend. I know not required, but it makes sense. 

[Cburkhardt]

If falsely accused of YPT abuse, have the CO investigate and exonerate.

Thanks for bringing your story forward.  So many of us are focused on preventing YPT incidents that we sometimes fail to recognize that good adult reputations are brought into question when a person makes unsubstantiated accusations that seem impossible to unwind or dispute.  However, this is not the case.  There is a great way to handle unfounded accusations.

When an allegation is made -- directly or impliedly -- that a volunteer has violated YPT during an incident involving a youth, the matter should always be fully investigated by the BSA and the Chartered Organization (CO).  Involving the CO is the only way to protect our youth members and the reputation of an adult falsely accused.  This is because when the BSA does the investigation by itself, there is no express, written exoneration of an innocent adult.  The BSA process only results in either removal of the accused adult from the program (being added to the ineligible volunteer list) or “no action” being taken.  No written explanation is ever provided.  That “no action” is taken does not equate into express exoneration.

When an adult scout leader observes abuse of a child by another that violates YPT, the observing scout leader is required under state laws to stop the abuse and immediately report the incident to law enforcement.  Next, the Scout Executive and CO must be informed.  Depending on the severity of the circumstance, law enforcement may or may not take action.  Regardless, the BSA and CO are obligated under their own internal policies to investigate and take action (if appropriate).  We are all familiar with the BSA YPT system.  COs also have ethical policies and are required to act to investigate and prevent reported abuse.  Often the CO will defer to the BSA to conduct the investigation and defer to its judgement – but this does not properly protect potentially-innocent adult volunteers.

What any falsely-accused adult should insist on in these types of situations is for the CO to conduct its own investigation of the matter in cooperation with the BSA and issue its own CO written report.  If the allegation is false or simply an unfounded suspicion on the part of the accuser, the CO can and should exonerate the accused in writing.  The BSA in such a circumstance will conduct its own investigation and determine to take “no action”.  The difference is clear – the accused can receive an explanation and exoneration only from the CO.

Here is an actual example.  A parent of a youth accused scout leaders of child abuse in writing because the youth came back exhausted after a long hike.  In this case the youth was not injured, only tired and thirsty.  And, full permission slips were executed with adequate warning that there was going to be a long hike that day.  The semi-public nature of the child abuse accusation was humiliating and potentially damaging to the careers of scout leaders, some of whom had security clearances.  The leaders self-reported the incident to the Scout Executive and CO (a church).  The church CO conducted its own investigation (involving an attorney) in cooperation with the BSA and issued a fully-exonerating document.  Those scout leaders now have a document protecting themselves.

In the incident you describe, Mr. Pillar did not report the alleged abuse to law enforcement.  Probably because he knows the allegation is either entirely false or a dishonestly exaggerated version of innocent facts.  That the BSA camp staff was made aware of the matter and chose to take “no action” proves how those falsely accused of a YPT incident are not exonerated under the BSA system.  Finally, you do not mention whether the alleged abuse was ever reported to the CO.

Mr. Pillar will continue to hector you with express or implied allegations of child abuse and your reputation will continue to be negatively impacted.  You have three choices:

1.    You can accept his continued hectoring and manage the impact on your reputation.

2.    You can sue him in court for defamation.

3.    You can self-report the original and all subsequent youth abuse allegations of Mr. Pillar to the BSA and CO and request a written report from your CO.  You must assure that your CO is directly and independently involved in the process and issues its written report.

Mr. Pillar will be forced to appear and prove his case to the CO and their attorney with facts.  “Pillars of the community” who use bullying and slanderous techniques to destroy reputations crumble when required to prove their cases.  There is no better justice.

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

18 minutes ago, Cburkhardt said:

If falsely accused of YPT abuse, have the CO investigate and exonerate.

Thanks for bringing your story forward.  So many of us are focused on preventing YPT incidents that we sometimes fail to recognize that good adult reputations are brought into question when a person makes unsubstantiated accusations that seem impossible to unwind or dispute.  However, this is not the case.  There is a great way to handle unfounded accusations.

When an allegation is made -- directly or impliedly -- that a volunteer has violated YPT during an incident involving a youth, the matter should always be fully investigated by the BSA and the Chartered Organization (CO).  Involving the CO is the only way to protect our youth members and the reputation of an adult falsely accused.  This is because when the BSA does the investigation by itself, there is no express, written exoneration of an innocent adult.  The BSA process only results in either removal of the accused adult from the program (being added to the ineligible volunteer list) or “no action” being taken.  No written explanation is ever provided.  That “no action” is taken does not equate into express exoneration.

When an adult scout leader observes abuse of a child by another that violates YPT, the observing scout leader is required under state laws to stop the abuse and immediately report the incident to law enforcement.  Next, the Scout Executive and CO must be informed.  Depending on the severity of the circumstance, law enforcement may or may not take action.  Regardless, the BSA and CO are obligated under their own internal policies to investigate and take action (if appropriate).  We are all familiar with the BSA YPT system.  COs also have ethical policies and are required to act to investigate and prevent reported abuse.  Often the CO will defer to the BSA to conduct the investigation and defer to its judgement – but this does not properly protect potentially-innocent adult volunteers.

What any falsely-accused adult should insist on in these types of situations is for the CO to conduct its own investigation of the matter in cooperation with the BSA and issue its own CO written report.  If the allegation is false or simply an unfounded suspicion on the part of the accuser, the CO can and should exonerate the accused in writing.  The BSA in such a circumstance will conduct its own investigation and determine to take “no action”.  The difference is clear – the accused can receive an explanation and exoneration only from the CO.

Here is an actual example.  A parent of a youth accused scout leaders of child abuse in writing because the youth came back exhausted after a long hike.  In this case the youth was not injured, only tired and thirsty.  And, full permission slips were executed with adequate warning that there was going to be a long hike that day.  The semi-public nature of the child abuse accusation was humiliating and potentially damaging to the careers of scout leaders, some of whom had security clearances.  The leaders self-reported the incident to the Scout Executive and CO (a church).  The church CO conducted its own investigation (involving an attorney) in cooperation with the BSA and issued a fully-exonerating document.  Those scout leaders now have a document protecting themselves.

In the incident you describe, Mr. Pillar did not report the alleged abuse to law enforcement.  Probably because he knows the allegation is either entirely false or a dishonestly exaggerated version of innocent facts.  That the BSA camp staff was made aware of the matter and chose to take “no action” proves how those falsely accused of a YPT incident are not exonerated under the BSA system.  Finally, you do not mention whether the alleged abuse was ever reported to the CO.

Mr. Pillar will continue to hector you with express or implied allegations of child abuse and your reputation will continue to be negatively impacted.  You have three choices:

1.    You can accept his continued hectoring and manage the impact on your reputation.

2.    You can sue him in court for defamation.

3.    You can self-report the original and all subsequent youth abuse allegations of Mr. Pillar to the BSA and CO and request a written report from your CO.  You must assure that your CO is directly and independently involved in the process and issues its written report.

Mr. Pillar will be forced to appear and prove his case to the CO and their attorney with facts.  “Pillars of the community” who use bullying and slanderous techniques to destroy reputations crumble when required to prove their cases.  There is no better justice.

 

Thanks for that @Cburkhardt!!  I did not know of this "accepted" (?) avenue for dealing with such situations.

Would this also apply if an adult on Camp Staff was accused by a youth Camp Staffer of an infraction?  Who would be in the CO role to write such a letter in that case, since both are "employees" of the council at the time?

[MattR]

16 minutes ago, Cburkhardt said:

If falsely accused of YPT abuse, have the CO investigate and exonerate

I'm not going to switch between threads to check this (is it okay if I combine these threads?), but this case sounds more like a parent just being an ass - insinuated abuse but not reported to anyone that has a record of it? I'd find out who has what record before hiring a lawyer.

That all said, Mr P sounds like one of those rare parents that SMs have to deal with. If he's only listed as an ASM then I'd let him know his services are no longer required and that if he does show up the police will be called. I say that because I had to do that once.

While I agree with @Eagledadthat talking through problems is normally the right way to go, you only have so much time and adults that insinuate abuse as a power play are just taking up your time that could be better spent with scouts.

@RainShine, my impression is you're still wound up about this and rightfully so. And yet, your committee went to bat for you. I believe your council did as well. That says a lot. Nobody becomes SM to put up with this sort of thing and hopefully this is the last time you have to deal with a parent like this. Your troop appreciates what you do. The scouts look up to you. Focus on that while you clean up this mess.

[RainShine]

22 minutes ago, MattR said:

is it okay if I combine these threads?

sure, whatever you think best

[Cburkhardt]

My CO investigation process suggestion is the result of my having been involved in successfully resolving alleged YPT infractions.  It respects the role and regulations of the BSA while simultaneously protecting the reputations of innocent adult volunteers.  I suggest it as a universal approach for those who value fair treatment of line-level Scouters -- while continuing vigorous YPT enforcement. 

Rainshine should do whatever is in his best interests, but should understand that a tiny subset of ill-intended parents are not amenable to talk or reason.  They must be dealt with firmly or be removed from the scene.  I have large units, so a certain number of these difficult personalities surface.  Rainshine is the unit leader and he has the say-so over which adults attend Troop activities.  Nobody is going to override his judgement on this situation.

Inquisitive:  The camp staff situation you describe would be an internal BSA personnel matter and would be handled under employment law.  That is a bit beyond my experience and expertise.  However, the adult's continuing BSA membership status (as opposed to employment termination) would still be determined by the Scout Executive by applying YPT standards.  Because there would be no CO to issue a potentially exonerating written report, I would get personal legal counsel involved and ask that person to write a letter confirming the exonerating circumstances.  Think of the legal fee involved as lifelong assurance that the circumstance will not limit your future volunteer or professional careers.  

[Eagle94-A1]

Unfortunately because BSA is a private organization with the right to select its members, they do not need to acknowledge a CO's investigation, let alone a criminal one, where the volunteer has been exonerated. They can still permanently remove an individual. My friend has never been reinstated in the BSA, despite a criminal investigation being done, and proving her story was the correct one.

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Unfortunately because BSA is a private organization with the right to select its members, they do not need to acknowledge a CO's investigation, let alone a criminal one, where the volunteer has been exonerated. They can still permanently remove an individual. My friend has never been reinstated in the BSA, despite a criminal investigation being done, and proving her story was the correct one.

And how does that situation square with "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Scout Law."???

Rhetorical... it doesn't.

[MattR]

I merged the 3 threads into 1 and kept the last title as everyone has seen it most recently.

[Cburkhardt]

Eagle94:  You are correct, but the practical use of this approach has resulted in the BSA and CO working together and recognizing the validity of each other’s efforts.  The key point is that the unfairly accused volunteer has an exonerating document from to CO to use with employers or others who might otherwise suspect the  person as a child abuser.  This is valuable even if the BSA removes the person’s membership.

This entire discussion proves the point made by others that having a regular and meaningful working relationship with your CO is necessary.