Catholics turn

[Eagledad]

2 minutes ago, jcousino said:

getting any level of scouts to admit it needs help is hard enough. Both paid and volunteers. the few high functioning units i have seen over my years where one,s that had a high functioning scoutmaster that keep the group together and would leverage other adults as needed. most where past upper level  managers/owners. 

Well said.

Humility is the fertile ground for the growth of integrity.

Barry

[jcousino]

1 minute ago, Eagledad said:

Well said.

Humility is the fertile ground for the growth of integrity.

Barry

unfortunately a lot of ground has been made rocky by false vanity 

[MattR]

I think you guys are being a bit naive on this one. If there's one thing I've learned about the scouting program it's that motivating scouts about character only works on those that essentially already get it. If a scout doesn't want to be bothered about character then it's a really hard slog. So either the parents believe that character is important or, on occasion, a scout's parents are bad enough that the scout sees a need for good character. But that's not to say that there aren't lots of scouts or their parents that want to get Eagle. And there lies a big problem. Absolutely vanity is preventing improvement. But greed is oh so much worse. If you really want to improve program quality then remove the biggest source of greed, rank advancement. Be a scout because you believe in the ideals, not that you're going to get a better job. I got so tired of listening to scouts that, when asked why they were in scouts, said first that they were going to get a better job or into a better university or it would make their resume look better. It used to be very rare when they said that. It always used to be about fun, friends and the outdoors. But it has changed. I was shocked the first time I heard something about payback. The last time I asked a group of scouts why they were in scouts it was close to half that said they were going to get something from earning a badge. Maybe it's my town that has changed but I doubt it. TikTok, likes, influencers, search algorithms ... our lexicon has changed to that of greed and dopamine hits. This program used to work because most of the volunteers really believed in the fundamentals. They believed in it so much that they wanted to make it work. Quality would have been an easy sell then. But that has eroded over time. There are still people that believe in the the ideals but there needs to be a critical mass of those people in order for a unit to deliver a good program, where the idea of improving quality is even viable. My guess is that most units feel they're delivering a quality program if some kids are getting Eagle patches. And it makes sense because that's how the program is sold.

Character is what you do when nobody is looking. It's not rank. It's not NESA. It's not OA. It's not a MB sash. It's not data in a database. It's what you do with your patrol when no adults are around. So, the first thing to do to make a quality program is to focus on a program with character and remove all the other distractions. Eagle is the biggest distraction. This reminds me of the Woodbadge game Win All You Can. Eagle is just goading people to do bad things. But they never come out and say it. It used to be that it was a method and could be used to develop character but that script has flipped.

But that will never happen.

 

 

[fred8033]

On 11/15/2024 at 6:06 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

What are yours, and how could we fix?

Commissioner corps?  District commissioners have worked okay, but I've never, never seen unit commissioners work well.  IMHO, 98% of the time unit commissioners is a broken concept ... for many, many, many reasons.

The quality issue is because scouting is conceptually simple, but the implementation is way overly complex; too complex for most leaders.  Worse, the program delivery has far too much variety.  The program would do better if it focused more on getting the scouts outside and being active.  Worry less about leadership and character.  Instead, focus on being active.  Then, leadership and character comes as a result of being active.

Edited 6 hours ago by fred8033

[InquisitiveScouter]

14 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Commissioner corps?  District commissioners have worked okay, but I've never, never seen unit commissioners work well.  IMHO, 98% of the time unit commissioners is a broken concept ... for many, many, many reasons.

The quality issue is because scouting is conceptually simple, but the implementation is way overly complex; too complex for most leaders.  Worse, the program delivery has far too much variety.  The program would do better if it focused more on getting the scouts outside and being active.  Worry less about leadership and character.  Instead, focus on being active.  Then, leadership and character comes as a result of being active.

Agreed!

And I think we would do better if we set the expectation that adults will learn Scout skills as well.

Most adults I know cannot tie the seven basic knots in the Scout Handbook (much less do any lashing), use a map and compass to find their way, sleep outside in less than 40 degree weather, go backpacking, or, more generally, know most of the things in the Scout Handbook that Scouts have to know (or know what "right" looks like).  And they are afraid to admit it and then go learn.

What happened to Be, Know, Do?

[SSScout]

The Amish have a saying (they have lots of sayings):  Show me what a man does with his hands that I might know his heart.

One of my observations  concerns the youth I encounter , both in and out of Scouting.  Hand manipulation.  Tying knots that HOLD.   If one is concerned about a small thing like a shoe lace tied so it won't come undone, that person might also be concerned about other things, done right, so they won't come undone.  The standards we set. "Oh, that's good enough."  Is it?   The idea that the Scout/youth can be taught, trusted, to do what is necessary, not just "good enough" (whatever that may mean).  

Kids in first grade that don't know their right from their left, over versus under....  I see it when Cubs try to fold the US flag in that triangular tradition.  It takes time, and I often have to shoo the father away from the Cub who is really experimenting with his hands, seemingly for the first time....  

The  misguided EBoR  that asks an Eagle candidate to tie a Bowline...   If they can't tie it then, it does no good to ask them, and it is not a failure of the Scout, but of the Troop.  

[InquisitiveScouter]

12 minutes ago, SSScout said:

The  misguided EBoR  that asks an Eagle candidate to tie a Bowline...   If they can't tie it then, it does no good to ask them, and it is not a failure of the Scout, but of the Troop.  

I have no problem asking Eagle Scout candidates to demo Scout skills, or show some Scout knowledge.  But, usually, it is a follow-on to a question about program and experiences.

"Jenny, what are some things you liked about Scouting?"

"I loved Pioneering Merit Badge, and learning to work with rope to build things."

"That's great!  Did you share some of these skills with the other Scouts in your Troop?"

"Yes, I was our primary Troop Instructor for whipping, knots, and lashings!"

"OK, right!  I see on your Eagle Application that is one of the Positions of Responsibility you have cited for your rank requirements.  Would you be willing to tie a bowline for me?  Here's a piece of rope."

"Sure!" <Ties the knot>

etc etc etc

It is not a test for the Scout, and, if the Scout cannot tie it, I would certainly not hold her up unless the candidate said something like "I never learned to tie a bowline." (Then it would be about not ever completing a requirement, versus not being able to remember how to do it.)

It is a measure of the program and Troop culture, and not necessarily a measure of the Scout.  "Its purpose is to determine the quality of the Scout’s experience and decide whether the requirements for the rank have been fulfilled."

 

[PACAN]

This topic has strayed from the original post which was to identify and discuss Catholic diocese and units eliminating their scout programs.

[MattR]

21 minutes ago, PACAN said:

This topic has strayed from the original post which was to identify and discuss Catholic diocese and units eliminating their scout programs.

Give me a new name and a rough range of dates and I'll split the thread.

[PACAN]

1 hour ago, MattR said:

Give me a new name and a rough range of dates and I'll split the thread.

The last post that I quickly saw related to the Girl scouts dropping was by Ducttape on 10/30.  After that I didn't see one directly related.  Went into Character, joining and commissioner posts.

[Tron]

On 11/15/2024 at 6:06 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

This is what the Commissioner Corps is supposed to be for.  And, in all the councils I have been in, it has been sorely lacking.  I have some thoughts on the reasons for this.  What are yours, and how could we fix?

I think there are 2 problems with the commissioner corps; First there is no enforcement so the efforts of the commissioner can become a huge waste of time (If a unit repeatedly gets low evaluations or refuses to meet why are council executives renewing those charters?). Secondly to be blunt there are too many scouting bro's scratching each others back. When a commissioner witnesses YPT and GTSS violations they need to thrown the bad leaders under the bus, not sweep the issue under the rug. 

On 11/16/2024 at 7:24 PM, Eagledad said:

A lot. But it’s not new. As we’ve discussed before, over 50% of  Webelos 2s don’t crossover into troops. Add in the number of cubs that quit in the other 4 years. And just about all that is on bad adult leadership. I’m guessing nationally that at least 60% of cubs don’t don’t finish the cub program.

The troop program has the problem that troops loose more first year scouts than any other year in the BSA program.

BUT, to be fair, most bad leaders are parents with average skills. The Cub program is over burdened and overly complicated for parents with average skills. The training and professional support doesn’t supplement these parents enough to bring their skills up to lead a quality program.

Parents with skills for a quality program typically were scouts as a youth. Especially in troops.

The Cub program needs an overhaul.

Barry

I think this goes back to service. At the cub level the parents can't just disappear once their scout crosses to a troop. We need a culture of lingering at the pack to pass on knowledge, hold hands a little, help those new parents get their feet under them. Most cub packs are like starting a new business with all new employees year-over-year.

On 11/17/2024 at 1:03 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

Somehow we need to cultivate a culture of the Pursuit of Excellence.

I, too, meet scads of Scouters who are unwilling to admit that they need some changes to improve their Scouting.

Good luck overcoming this psychological barrier. 

I think a good scout executive can fix this in every council by treating JTE/Quality Unit/Whatever the new program as mandatory to recharter, and publicly posts the scores. If units get caught lying on their JTE, yank the charter. How many packs and troops would fix their problems in a heartbeat if they had to deal with parents that really knew what was going on in a unit? 

An alternative, every January districts should have to run a class for AOL and perspective new parents on how to identify properly functioning units. Think of an AOL parent who gets a 15min crash course on patrol method and how they would steer their kids to units?