no singing, bummer

[5thGenTexan]

I think I will probably reset my password by random keystrokes, so I dont even know what it is preventing me from signing back in and posting.

[yknot]

3 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I am not even going to try to explain the Psychology of introverts.....  Would be futile.

I am a conscientious objector whenever people start murdering songs. I refuse to carry dead and mangled tunes for others. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

13 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I am not even going to try to explain the Psychology of introverts.....  Would be futile.

(Disclaimer:  this post is tongue-in-cheek!!!)

It's intrinsically the same as extroverts... both are dealing with narcissism and a feeling of vulnerability and embarrassment 😜  At least, I can speak for the extroverts. 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/communication-success/201601/7-signs-covert-introvert-narcissist

[yknot]

14 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I am not even going to try to explain the Psychology of introverts.....  Would be futile.

I first reacted humorously to this but on a serious note, this is yet another of my many issues with how Scouting views leadership, what kind of leadership it values, and how it develops it. The program kind of assumes that extroversion is good and through things like songs it encourages even introverts to learn how to be extroverts, i.e., leaders. Some of the most effective leaders, though, aren't extroverts at all, they are introverts. While there are some great extrovert leaders, it's not the only leadership model out there. However, scouting places a very heavy emphasis on valuing kids who are extroverts. Kids who are clearly uncomfortable with approaching older scouts or adults with questions or for signoffs often drop out unless it's recognized and some mentoring is done. There's a great book  on the topic: Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking. I think more extroverts, particularly in scouting, should read it.  

[Eagledad]

21 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I am not even going to try to explain the Psychology of introverts.....  Would be futile.

My apologies for replying so late. I don't think an explanation would be futile. In fact, stories of how to deal with introverts can help other scout leaders in the forum. Introverts can have anxiety from any personal communication with strangers or even known acquaintances if the subject subject mater is challenging. And challenging can even mean something positive like a boss asking the introvert to come to their office to present them with a raise. Introverts struggle with making choices of meeting people to knowingly advance their personal situation, or to not meet that person to ease the anxiety of the meeting.

I have worked with many scouts with introvert tendencies, some very severe. I have lots of great bragging success stories of these scouts. I believe scouting to be a wonderful program for these scouts because they are introduce into a team atmosphere where they learn to develop trust in the members of their team and contribute to a common goal. But, the key to scouts with introvert characteristics is to start them on the team, but in a minimum expectations. I had one scout terrified to have an acting role in front of the group. I learned this when he was asked to present the colors on a campout. No problem, we instead moved him with the scouts who presented the colors without any expected actions. Two years later he was leading ceremonies..

There is more, but that is the basic idea. But, I agree whole heartedly with Sentinel947 that participating with the patrol in songs and skits is a HUGE team building tool. They were in fact the very tools used for our Webelos program to get scouts ready for the troop program. And one doesn't have to be a great singer, or even sing at all. They can participate by leading the group or holding props. The main thing is being part of the team.

A mother of a severe introvert in our troop sent a letter to the Council SE explaining how their son was so shy and introverted that even his teachers were making fun of him. In fact, they sued the school over it. In her letter, she explained that the troop was only place where he felt safe to be himself because all his patrol mates accepted him for who he was. He eventually matured to be a Patrol Leader. She couldn't enough about the scout program. Last I heard, that scout was an officer on a nuclear submarine.

As I said, I can't think of a better youth program that helps youth develop the courage, confidence and habits for fitting in society. A troop is cultural experience at a youth size.

Hope that helps.

Barry

[skeptic]

Speaking of singing; I just rediscovered my 1913 Scout Song Book with very early scout songs and others.  It is, as far as I can tell, the first one published.  Many of the songs I have never heard, and until I find someone to read the notes, most I cannot sing.  Also some interesting patriotic ones I have not seen.  

 

[DuctTape]

40 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Speaking of singing; I just rediscovered my 1913 Scout Song Book with very early scout songs and others.  It is, as far as I can tell, the first one published.  Many of the songs I have never heard, and until I find someone to read the notes, most I cannot sing.  Also some interesting patriotic ones I have not seen.  

 

Your post prompted me to go look at the date for my Songbook. Much more recent 1966.

[Sentinel947]

On 12/12/2022 at 9:55 AM, yknot said:

I first reacted humorously to this but on a serious note, this is yet another of my many issues with how Scouting views leadership, what kind of leadership it values, and how it develops it. The program kind of assumes that extroversion is good and through things like songs it encourages even introverts to learn how to be extroverts, i.e., leaders. Some of the most effective leaders, though, aren't extroverts at all, they are introverts. While there are some great extrovert leaders, it's not the only leadership model out there. However, scouting places a very heavy emphasis on valuing kids who are extroverts. Kids who are clearly uncomfortable with approaching older scouts or adults with questions or for signoffs often drop out unless it's recognized and some mentoring is done. There's a great book  on the topic: Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking. I think more extroverts, particularly in scouting, should read it.  

Totally agree with this. When somebody says "Leader" the streotype that comes to mind is the President, a Sports coach, or a military leader in the front of a group of soldiers storming the enemy. Scouting does tend to bias towards streotypical extroverts, because Scouting is a team and social activity. There is a stereotyping for youth and adult leaders to exhibit what we consider extroverted traits, but that's a cop out. These sterotypes get drawn on too much. We make excuses for people not just in Scouting, "They're an (Extrovert/Introvert) it's just the way they are." I don't believe that's true at all. Extroverts and introverts can both be excellent leaders and it is our challenge as adult volunteers to help our Scouts develop their own leadership style. When we try to create carbon copy clones of "leaders" in Scouting, we fail them. We have to equip our Scouts with values and tools to be leaders, and let them develop their own style. 

My understanding of Extroverts vs Introverts is that Extroverts are energized by interactions with others, while it's overall a drain to introverts. That doesn't necessarily mean Introverts hate people, and it doesn't necessarily mean Introverts can't be outgoing and social when necessary. While extroverts are outgoing and social, that doesn't mean they can't be reserved and contemplative. They may need to be taught, and given opportunities to practice. 

My Wood Badge Course Director was an incredible leader and an introvert. He communicates well, and I was inspired by his leadership, but he needed little moments at events and after events to decompress, wind down and have self care time. He could get up and speak publically just as well as any extrovert, but much of his leadership of our training team and participants was done quietly, and subtly 1 on 1. He set a tone and direction for our course to be successful. That is just as, if not moreso, effective leadership than the typical streotypical rah rah Extrovert. Meanwhile I'm a raging extrovert and come back from a Scout event fired up and feeling great. Basically my limit on human interaction is that eventually I need to sleep. 

That being said, oftentimes Scouting is about pushing Scouts to grow and get out of their comfort zone, to try new things. This is true of encouraging (not requring, or bullying) Scouts who are afraid of heights to try the rock climinb wall. Same applies to extroverts/introvers in Scouting. We should be encouraging the shy and quiet Scout to put themselves out there in a safe environment and sing songs, participate in skits, and play games. That's growth for them, and they might find they actually enjoy it. At the least, it helps them participate with the team, and develop a comfort in social settings that willl be beneficial to them. An opportunity for the social butterfly extrovert is to actually not take the lead in some of those things. Give other people a chance. Make room for other peoples ideas and experiences to be shared.

I struggle to listen to others and give people equal time to speak. I enjoy talking. As a youth and adult, Scouting has offered me opportunities to practice good social skills, and look for opportunities to encourage others, and to bite my tongue and let other people have the spotlight. That was/is growth for me as a stereotypical extrovert. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Sentinel947

[RememberSchiff]

4 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

Totally agree with this. When somebody says "Leader" the streotype that comes to mind is the President, a Sports coach, or a military leader in the front of a group of soldiers storming the enemy. Scouting does tend to bias towards streotypical extroverts, because Scouting is a team and social activity. There is a stereotyping for youth and adult leaders to exhibit what we consider extroverted traits, but that's a cop out. These sterotypes get drawn on too much. We make excuses for people not just in Scouting, "They're an (Extrovert/Introvert) it's just the way they are." I don't believe that's true at all. Extroverts and introverts can both be excellent leaders and it is our challenge as adult volunteers to help our Scouts develop their own leadership style. When we try to create carbon copy clones of "leaders" in Scouting, we fail them. We have to equip our Scouts with values and tools to be leaders, and let them develop their own style. 

My understanding of Extroverts vs Introverts is that Extroverts are energized by interactions with others, while it's overall a drain to introverts. That doesn't necessarily mean Introverts hate people, and it doesn't necessarily mean Introverts can't be outgoing and social when necessary. While extroverts are outgoing and social, that doesn't mean they can't be reserved and contemplative. They may need to be taught, and given opportunities to practice. 

My Wood Badge Course Director was an incredible leader and an introvert. He communicates well, and I was inspired by his leadership, but he needed little moments at events and after events to decompress, wind down and have self care time. He could get up and speak publically just as well as any extrovert, but much of his leadership of our training team and participants was done quietly, and subtly 1 on 1. He set a tone and direction for our course to be successful. That is just as, if not moreso, effective leadership than the typical streotypical rah rah Extrovert. Meanwhile I'm a raging extrovert and come back from a Scout event fired up and feeling great. Basically my limit on human interaction is that eventually I need to sleep. 

That being said, oftentimes Scouting is about pushing Scouts to grow and get out of their comfort zone, to try new things. This is true of encouraging (not requring, or bullying) Scouts who are afraid of heights to try the rock climinb wall. Same applies to extroverts/introvers in Scouting. We should be encouraging the shy and quiet Scout to put themselves out there in a safe environment and sing songs, participate in skits, and play games. That's growth for them, and they might find they actually enjoy it. At the least, it helps them participate with the team, and develop a comfort in social settings that willl be beneficial to them. An opportunity for the social butterfly extrovert is to actually not take the lead in some of those things. Give other people a chance. Make room for other peoples ideas and experiences to be shared.

I struggle to listen to others and give people equal time to speak. I enjoy talking. As a youth and adult, Scouting has offered me opportunities to practice good social skills, and look for opportunities to encourage others, and to bite my tongue and let other people have the spotlight. That was/is growth for me as a stereotypical extrovert. 

Introverts' box is "behind the curtain" and maybe background vocals.  We introverts excelled more in the writing and production which complemented the stage presence and theatrical talent of extroverts.

So at the start a summer camp week, the camp songmaster would sing a familiar song, e.g., It Ain't Gonna Rain No More

Chorus:

Oh, it ain't gonna rain no more, no more
It ain't gonna rain no more
How in the heck can I wash around my neck
if it ain't gonna rain no more

He then challenged patrols to write new verses... and were off using the Patrol Method to write verses and sing them later in the week.

Here are some familiar verses at https://www.boyscouttrail.com/content/song/it_aint_gonna_rain_no_more-446.asp

For your amusement, I somewhat remember our efforts from back in the day.

My bunk was all netted

No bugs could come inside

But I completely forgetted

That bears like bunks like myde

Chorus:

My patrol all liked me

Always asking about my sister

Until the eventful day

She dated an Army enlister

Chorus:

Participate.

My 2 verses,

Edited December 13, 2022 by RememberSchiff