It's finally come to this

[johnsch322]

1 minute ago, KublaiKen said:

Weren't they talking about Scouting in Africa, not the BSA? Specifically with regard to Baden-Powell's influence there?

Thank you. 

[BlueandSilverBear]

5 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

This is wonderful, but I can find a tribal pastor to say the exact opposite so who do we listen to?

Defer to the Scout Law and be courteous and kind.

[qwazse]

Apologies, I didn’t track the tangent.

Here’s one thumbnail of Scouts South Africa https://histclo.com/youth/youth/org/sco/country/sa/scoutsa.htm

It seems that black, colored, Indian, and white South African troops arose independently and early in the organization’s history, much the way troops in US communities under polices of segregation arose. What’s notable about Scouts SA, is that — with “encouragement” from the Nordic Countries of WOSM they integrated in 1977 — in direct defiance of apartheid.

[Mrjeff]

On 1/13/2023 at 12:36 PM, yknot said:

At the pack level some years ago, one of the leaders excitedly brought in some OA dancers, thinking it would thrill the youth and inspire word of mouth recruitment. Instead, at least half the parents dragged their cubs out the door within minutes and pack leadership had to subsequently field some rather outraged questions from the school district since it was held in a gym, and issue assurances it would never happen again. At the troop level, interest in OA has been zero to minimal for the better part of a decade. Parents and  youth here are heavily focused on pursuing Eagle and any other accolade that will look good on a college resume. In this social media age, however, people have increasingly become sensitized about recognizing and not being associated with anything that could be construed as demeaning, questionable, or politically incorrect. Frankly, people outside of scouting and even many within it, don't know what OA is, which is maybe good. But once they understand what it is and read up a little about it, they generally don't seem to get much past a couple of the words or a stray post on Facebook before deciding it's not for them. This has come up in BORs with scouts and in conversations with parents. Personally, I think rebranding OA away from the AI imagery and language to become something more focused on the scouting trail could be a boost to membership.  I think if there was a national youth survey on how they currently view OA and its associated imagery, ceremonies, and language, it might help give a better picture of how to shape a meaningful scout honor society. 

I heard this rumor too, but could not substantiate it.  

[Eagledad]

10 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

I heard this rumor too, but could not substantiate it.  

Doesn’t make sense.

Barry

[Mrjeff]

⁹0The national committee should mind their own business.   If a lodge can come to an agreement with their local Native Americans then leave them alone.  If not give advice concerning alternatives.   But don't issue cease and decist directives where there is no problem.

 

 

[Mrjeff]

5 hours ago, BlueandSilverBear said:

Defer to the Scout Law and be courteous and kind.

How about trustworthy, loyal,  brave, clean and reverent?

[yknot]

3 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

I heard this rumor too, but could not substantiate it.  

You are referring to the parents leaving the pack meeting? That's not rumor, that happened to me in my unit when I was the Committee Chair and one of my Webelos co-leaders was the one who arranged the visit. She had done the same thing a few years prior for her older son. She was shocked. We all were -- we'd seen it before, didn't really think much about it. Myself and the Cubmaster were the ones who had to smooth it over with the district. It's also not the only incident I'm aware of. 

 

[SiouxRanger]

On 1/15/2023 at 12:06 AM, SiouxRanger said:

I find this photo to be unsettling. Are these Order of the Arrow members of the KKK folks? I just can't tell.

I do dislike auto correct.

What I typed was "Are these Order of the Arrow members or KKK Folks?"  (Not "of.") Maybe that makes no difference to InquisitiveScouter.

But, I was NOT intending to equate the OA with the KKK.  I just can't make sense of the picture. I must be missing something.

[SiouxRanger]

4 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

⁹0The national committee should mind their own business.   If a lodge can come to an agreement with their local Native Americans then leave them alone.  If not give advice concerning alternatives.   But don't issue cease and decist directives where there is no problem.

 

 

I am struggling to understand the concept of "cultural appropriation" and continue my studies…

But in the meantime, does an OA Lodge have some obligation to either obtain approval or conform to the Native American Personna of a tribe LOCAL to the Lodge's location?

That is, can an OA Lodge in Minnesota adopt a Seminole personna?

In my 50+ years of attending OA tap-out ceremonies in my Council, the ceremony always referenced the Lenni Lenape, which are from the upper Northeast.

So, are all OA Lodges to conform to the regalia of the Lenni Lenape?

Thanks.

[qwazse]

5 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

I am struggling to understand the concept of "cultural appropriation" and continue my studies…

But in the meantime, does an OA Lodge have some obligation to either obtain approval or conform to the Native American Personna of a tribe LOCAL to the Lodge's location?

That is, can an OA Lodge in Minnesota adopt a Seminole personna?

In my 50+ years of attending OA tap-out ceremonies in my Council, the ceremony always referenced the Lenni Lenape, which are from the upper Northeast.

So, are all OA Lodges to conform to the regalia of the Lenni Lenape?

Thanks.

I think, here, we need to distinguish between legend and culture. The legend of Delaware tribes uniting to fend off rivals is centers on Lenni Lenapi history -- as recorded by 18th century settlers and popularized by James Fennimore Cooper. The O/A adopted that legend to adopt an ethos of brotherhood. (The word "brother", in Lenni-Lenapi was especially confusing to Europeans trying to make -- or break -- land contracts. It had a much wider meaning than nuclear family.)

The dress, dances, etc ... should honor local tribes. Over the decades I have seen our lodges dress move from that of plains Indians to that of Iroquios and Deleware tribes. In other words, they became less movie theatre and more archeology/sociology.

[SiouxRanger]

4 hours ago, qwazse said:

The dress, dances, etc ... should honor local tribes

I live East of the Mississippi.

In my state, I know of no "local tribes" which have a presence here any longer. I've lived here for more than 60 years. The only tribes claiming their origin in my state are far away. They have no presence here. Occasionally, a representative of a tribe will appear to speak to some issue.  Maybe once a decade.

And even at that, I have little sense or knowledge of their removal from my state, the depth of their connection to my state.

How does one even determine which tribes occupied their area, and their current representatives?

And, "honor."

So, if an OA lodge's ceremony script is respectful of not only Native Americans, but people generally, is that OK?

The Lenni Lenape script of my local OA Lodge is inspiring to me, a non-Native American.

 

[MattR]

3 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

How does one even determine which tribes occupied their area, and their current representatives?

[skeptic]

18 minutes ago, MattR said:

Most communities in So Cal seem to have a good idea of what tribes were present since the Spanish days and before.  Much of the area bordering the Great Basin and the Colorado River were home to transiant tribes that moved with the seasons.  In our area, the Chumash is the accepted principle tribe, and our lodge works with them to keep in touch with tribal concerns.  They have often blessed some of our activities with special ceremonies.  But there are records of a number of other tribes in and out, and trading inland to the ocean was common.  Many tribes were very small, and after the Mission era, some were basically extinquished by the mining and cattle interests that moved into the areas.  More recently, we have seen discoveries of small enclaaves of surviving tribes in the desert areas and along the coast.  I suspect similar patterns may be known in much of the country, and from my studies in Native American history and anthropology of the same I am aware that much of the knowledge is only now starting to emerge, especially since so many tribes were small and mobile.  We need to respect what we know, and make real efforts to not corrupt cultural places and history.

 

[yknot]

7 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

I live East of the Mississippi.

In my state, I know of no "local tribes" which have a presence here any longer. I've lived here for more than 60 years. The only tribes claiming their origin in my state are far away. They have no presence here. Occasionally, a representative of a tribe will appear to speak to some issue.  Maybe once a decade.

And even at that, I have little sense or knowledge of their removal from my state, the depth of their connection to my state.

How does one even determine which tribes occupied their area, and their current representatives?

And, "honor."

So, if an OA lodge's ceremony script is respectful of not only Native Americans, but people generally, is that OK?

The Lenni Lenape script of my local OA Lodge is inspiring to me, a non-Native American.

 

Every single state east of the Mississippi has either federally or state recognized tribes or unrecognized but active heritage tribal associations. They are pretty easy to find. That's one of the complaints of the indigenous community. People seem blind to the fact that they are all still right here, all over the place, just as other groups are. If you want to start learning about your local tribal groups, just google Indian Tribal groups in XXX state and you'll find them. Most states have tribal relations, affairs, or resource departments or agencies.