It's finally come to this

[jcousino]

I've participated in many ceremonies in and out of scouting.  Ceremonies mark achievements and transitions. 

That is true only if what you are receiving has meaning to you. Been through also a lot of ceremonies including an ordination and varies degrees. The ones that still have the most meaning to me are the ones that i had to put effort, work and sweat it. I valued the process and product. Not sure what Kids at that level value. OA now at best is a sidestep to eagle, not sure how much that is even valued today in scout. Yes, we want everyone to reach it, (we are not eagle mills ,but that a different subject) Keep changing the level of requirements when people ae not reaching it. Some of the brighter youths tell me i need eagle so that i can get into a upper-level college. (Another subject) that all it means. I interring read is look at how each generation views itself and the world. It may help you understand some of their though process and why things that for us were meaning full are not to them.

[Armymutt]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

Ceremonies are important.  I think there are many ways to do meaningful ceremonies.  If nothing else, Lord Baden Powell would be the perfect fulcrum for ceremonies.  Tell his story.  Tell the vision.  Tell the evolution of scouting.  Tell the meaning.  Tell what scouts have done for others for 100+ years.  OA is about continuing the service and honor fundamental to scouting.  

I've participated in many ceremonies in and out of scouting.  Ceremonies mark achievements and transitions. 

I fully 100% believe OA can have extremely meaningful ceremonies without the uncomfortable use of American Indian culture.

You don't think that the same types of people complaining about the OA now won't be slightly offended at an organization that uses a major participant in sustaining and enhancing the colonization and oppression of Africans as a fulcrum?  The UK removed a statue of him from the public space.  BSA doesn't broadcast B-P's involvement in Scouting on its brochures.  He's not at the forefront of anything.  There has to be a reason for that.  I'm betting that the folks in Irving would rather keep his name out of anything that isn't involved with die hard Scouters - like in Wood Badge.  

[skeptic]

More trying to somehow rewrite history.  The FACT that scouting was open to Aftricans when BP was still alive should be enough to negate this.  But, we just have to find ways to make history read as we wish, rather than it is.  Different time, different world and even local ideas and ways.  Just like BP moved to respnd to the Girls that showed up in a group and told him they wanted to be Scouts too, and so they were there, he spent time and effort to find ways to mitigate much of the cultural and raceproblemsof the time.  

You cannot rewrite history nor hange the culture from the past to somehow look good today.  It is simply ignoratnt to even suggest.  JMHO of course, as I am really tired of this type of ignorance and would hope others might agree,.  

Base on today, there are huge differences in cultural awareness and responses.  And many are tin ted with the wrrors or poor ideas of the past.  Fix today, but leave the past in the past, as you CANNOT change it.

[johnsch322]

2 hours ago, skeptic said:

The FACT that scouting was open to Aftricans when BP was still alive should be enough to negate this.

Was that Black or White Africans?

[skeptic]

4 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

Was that Black or White Africans?

Both, though surely you knew that already.  

 

[johnsch322]

12 hours ago, skeptic said:

Both, though surely you knew that already.  

 

And they were very segregated.  

[skeptic]

58 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

And they were very segregated.  

Mostly, as was the culture of the time.  But there was interactions, and blacks were not banned from international events, nor not allowed.  All of these challenges Evolve with the time and surrounding cultures.This predates apartheid of course, yet in 1979 at Philmont our crew met a crew from South Africa that had come due to the cancellation of the jamboree.  A full crew of youth, all White except for their leader.  Yet there did not appear to be any real problems with their interactions.  Granted, we did spend much time with them.  But, the fact that they came with that type of arrangement says a lot, or at least seems to.  

[SiouxRanger]

So, just what are folks consider things to be "cultural appropriation?"

And just what are the or harmful or damaging effects of that "cultural appropriation?"

Thanks.

[SiouxRanger]

On 1/11/2023 at 11:29 PM, HashTagScouts said:

The arguments for the overnight are it is the entire purpose of the Ordeal: a night away to reflect on what challenges you are asked to place upon yourself, and whether you are worthy for the honor.

That is the CORE of it, and, for me, changed my life.

[SiouxRanger]

Just increase the level of "amenities" ordeal candidates can take to reduce the adverse effect of weather elements.  An 8' x 10 ' piece of plastic tarp should do the job. And 4-6 lengths of para-cord to pitch it.

[SiouxRanger]

On 1/12/2023 at 8:02 AM, InquisitiveScouter said:

The first ones were in black robes.

Here's a pic from the birth of my home lodge:

 

You could easily ditch the headdresses.  And you do not need a fictional story of Native Americans to promulgate ideas about Brotherhood, Cheerfulness, and Service.

You could easily find stories to demonstrate these during the Colonial period, or during the American Revolution, or the westward expansion, etc.  It should not be offensive to find and tell a story from some native tribes to demonstrate these principles, either.  They need not be from your area particularly, since you are ditching the wearing of clothing to mimic.

Or, if a lodge wanted to incorporate stories from their local first peoples, there's plenty... 574 recognized tribes in the US.

https://www.usa.gov/tribes

P.S.  Gotta love the ties!!

P.P.S.  Also see https://oa-bsa.org/history/first-ceremony

I find this photo to be unsettling. Are these Order of the Arrow members of the KKK folks? I just can't tell.

[scoutldr]

5 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

I find this photo to be unsettling. Are these Order of the Arrow members of the KKK folks? I just can't tell.

Well, I don't see any white robes and hoods or a burning cross.  That would be my first clue.

[Mrjeff]

On 1/11/2023 at 11:30 AM, fred8033 said:

I'm just an OA member embarrassed by my organizations practices.  Is it a huge embarrassment?  No.  My embarrassment is more about not wanting to be associated with the practice.

I should be proud of everything about OA.  It's the whole point.  OA is an honor society.  It's about service and fellowship.  Instead, OA has as major area that I'm embarrassed to talk about.  

 

https://ictnews.org/news/order-of-the-arrow-is-a-secret-scout-society-in-the-spirit-of-the-lenni-lenape-a-lenape-leader-disagrees

Lenni Lenape elder and tribal pastor John Norwood responded to Indian Country Today in an email, that his view on the Order of the Arrow’s adherence to said traditions and practices are plainly “not authentic.”

“It is my understanding that the original ‘lore and ceremony’ of the Boy Scouts of America, Order of the Arrow was allegedly based upon what was claimed to be Lenape culture, although I am uncertain as to whether that remains true, Norwood wrote in an email. 

 

The order was “based upon a version of the old Northern Unami dialect of Lenape, called ‘Mission Lenape,’ which was probably gleaned from Moravian missionary documents going back to the 18th and early 19th centuries.

“The BSA/OA's use of Native dress and ceremony originated around the time that other non-Native organizations adopted Native dress, lore, and ceremony for their usage, ironically during a period in history when many Natives were discouraged from embracing our own tribal culture and identity and when government and social forces sought to terminate tribes. Often such groups with a history of using Native dress, lore, and ceremonies will claim that permission was granted by some “Indian” at some point in the past. Whether or not this is true is immaterial. No single individual tribal person has the authority to place the cultural knowledge and property rights of a tribal nation into the public domain.”

 

Norwood said that no matter the intentions, the wearing of Native dress by non-Native people is appropriation.

"While I respect each tribe’s right to its own perspective on the issue, I believe that no matter the sincerity of the participants, the use of Native dress and ceremonies (even when accurately portrayed) by non-Natives is a misappropriation of our culture. I appreciate the effort to consult with area tribes, as expressed in the OA manual. However, this should be done in order to gain an understanding of, and appreciation for, regional tribal heritage, not in order to mimic it." 

 

"The problem with gaining permission to use tribal dress and ceremony from regional tribes is that the history of the United States includes the disruption and displacement of tribes to the extent that a region may not contain all of its original indigenous tribes, which would still have a claim to the cultural heritage being appropriated. Moreover, even if one generation of an authentic tribe granted such permission, another generation would still have the right to withdraw such permission. Also, there are some non-historic cultural enthusiast groups that illegitimately claim tribal identity and authority, which would fraudulently grant such permission to those seeking their blessing to “play Indian.”

 

Norwood says using a drum for "Native" song created by non-Native people is also appropriating culture.

"The songs and ceremonies and regalia of our people belong to our people. They represent a heritage that has passed from one generation to the next during centuries of persecution. Some elements of regalia or songs or ceremonies are particular to a clan or family or society within a tribe and require some personal achievement and/or special permission in order to gain the right of use, even for tribal people."

This is wonderful, but I can find a tribal pastor to say the exact opposite so who do we listen to?

[qwazse]

On 1/13/2023 at 6:31 PM, johnsch322 said:

Was that Black or White Africans?

On 1/14/2023 at 11:32 AM, johnsch322 said:

And they were very segregated.  

@johnsch322 paints with a discriminating broad brush. African Americans were advancing in European American troops from the early years of BSA …

https://aaregistry.org/story/first-black-eagle-scout-awarded/

They we’re also advancing in segregated troops, Martin Luther King, Jr’s troop being one of them.

I would suggest that it is harmful to one’s soul to conflate evils. There is a big difference in troops being founded by black leaders in segregated communities and the nation’s black scouts being “very segregated” from the nation’s white scouts.

[KublaiKen]

42 minutes ago, qwazse said:

@johnsch322 paints with a discriminating broad brush. African Americans were advancing in European American troops from the early years of BSA …

https://aaregistry.org/story/first-black-eagle-scout-awarded/

They we’re also advancing in segregated troops, Martin Luther King, Jr’s troop being one of them.

I would suggest that it is harmful to one’s soul to conflate evils. There is a big difference in troops being founded by black leaders in segregated communities and the nation’s black scouts being “very segregated” from the nation’s white scouts.

Weren't they talking about Scouting in Africa, not the BSA? Specifically with regard to Baden-Powell's influence there?

ETA: I just checked and they were. @johnsch322was replying to specifically to a comment by @skepticabout Scouting being open to blacks in Africa.

Edited January 15, 2023 by KublaiKen
Update