It's finally come to this

[Eagle1993]

1 minute ago, Mrjeff said:

I wish someone could direct me towards the first nation citizens who dislike what the OA is doing, because EVERY FIRST NATION MEMBER that I have actually spoken are very supportive

Just 1 example here:

Boy Scout OA Dance Teams - PowWows.com Forums - Native American Culture

Just one of many negative quotes from various forum members from tribes about order of the arrow...

Quote

"i wont make light of the fact that i absolutely HATE order of the arrow and fantasize about smashing thier little heads in with a baseball bat""

Then there are articles about BSA and NA:

Boy Scouts ‘have been one of the worst culprits’ of cultural appropriation - ICT News

Order of the Arrow is a ‘secret’ scout society ‘in the spirit of the Lenni Lenape’ - a Lenape leader disagrees - ICT News

Personally, I think we make a mistake when we generalize or even reference "Indian" culture.  There isn't an "Indian culture" in the USA.  There are tribal cultures.  If a specific tribe is working with a lodge, I'm not sure why anyone from the outside would have an issue.  I know there are several lodges that have good relationships with tribes.  I hope that can continue.

That said, to think no one from the NA community has a problem with this is completely wrong.  

However, BSA & National OA can make whatever decisions they think is best.

[InquisitiveScouter]

9 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

Right......try to revoke the membership of someone who is gay!!!! Also, the BSA has openly stated that they do not own the local councils, and each council is autonomous with their own board of directors.  Cant have it both ways.

uh, James Dale... BSA vs Dale

They DID revoke his membership because he is gay.

And that Supreme Court decision still stands.  BSA may have changed their policy, but the right for a private organization to define its membership standards is law.

https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/61/boy-scouts-of-america-v-dale

[jcousino]

8 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Pretty sure that members of the National OA Committee do not also sit in Congress.

You are free to speak But BSA is not any part of the government, so it is also free to limit its membership based on its own whims. The only real pressure one can apply against BSA is to work to affect (been effective in the past) their funding BSA is a private group. 

The moderators of this chat board can limit or ban any they want as the chat board is privately held

[yknot]

What connection does the Order of the Arrow have with North America indigenous cultures? As far as I know, it is a BSA honor and service society. Is service performed for local tribes or reservations as part of OA society membership? Do the local tribes and communities benefit from volunteer hours given by OA members or from any fundraising efforts or support, either from the local OA lodge, national group, or the BSA? Do OA members volunteer their time on reservations they way they do to council camps? Are there any kinds of standardized BSA scholarship programs offered to reservation youth? Do the lodges pay any licensing fees to their local tribes for the use of the regalia and images? Do the national groups? Just wondering what we give in return for having been able to use some of this iconography if anyone knows ... 

[Mrjeff]

11 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

uh, James Dale... BSA vs Dale

They DID revoke his membership because he is gay.

And that Supreme Court decision still stands.  BSA may have changed their policy, but the right for a private organization to define its membership standards is law.

https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/61/boy-scouts-of-america-v-dale

Oh boy, like I said, just try and revoke the membership of someone because they are gay, and see where that goes.

[Mrjeff]

11 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Just 1 example here:

Boy Scout OA Dance Teams - PowWows.com Forums - Native American Culture

Just one of many negative quotes from various forum members from tribes about order of the arrow...

Then there are articles about BSA and NA:

Boy Scouts ‘have been one of the worst culprits’ of cultural appropriation - ICT News

Order of the Arrow is a ‘secret’ scout society ‘in the spirit of the Lenni Lenape’ - a Lenape leader disagrees - ICT News

Personally, I think we make a mistake when we generalize or even reference "Indian" culture.  There isn't an "Indian culture" in the USA.  There are tribal cultures.  If a specific tribe is working with a lodge, I'm not sure why anyone from the outside would have an issue.  I know there are several lodges that have good relationships with tribes.  I hope that can continue.

That said, to think no one from the NA community has a problem with this is completely wrong.  

However, BSA & National OA can make whatever decisions they think is best.

WHO ARE THEY, anyone can right down  anything but exactly who are the complainers?  If it is some Berkly professor who thinks its ok if a boy thinks he's a girl or if a girl thinks she's a cat, then they do need to "shut the hell up."  

[fred8033]

2 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

WHO ARE THEY, anyone can right down  anything but exactly who are the complainers?  If it is some Berkly professor who thinks its ok if a boy thinks he's a girl or if a girl thinks she's a cat, then they do need to "shut the hell up."  

I'm one.  I've been called Reagan era republican.  I cringe in hindsight that I'm now associated with about eight years ago bringing in a BSA scout Indian regalia dance team to our cub scout pack for our pack program.  Was it wrong?  Not explicitly.  Do I want to be seen as the guy who brought them in?  Absolutely not.  

It's similar to telling crude inappropriate jokes.  I really don't have trouble with most and will defend a person's right to tell the jokes.  I just don't want to be seen as the guy telling the joke or asking someone else to tell the joke.  

BSA's use of indian lore in scouting has turned into an off-color joke.  Time to change.  Heck, the NFL and MLB made the change.  Time for BSA to clean up.

[Mrjeff]

Unfortunately this is just another step in the systematic suicide of the Boy Scouts. I agree that the BSA is a private organization that requires an application and a membership fee.  Therefore the private organization can restrict who can be accepted for membership.  At one time each member had to agree with the scout oath and law and recognize their duty to God.  It was that simple and it worked for a long time.  Like it or not, agreemor not, the Boy Scouts stopped using these strict guidelines and turned the BSA into a club med that is open to everyone and has a place for everybody.  Sincce it is for everybody and no one can be offended they slowly cut the guts out of a great organization.   I would agree that I would rather discontinue the Order of the Arrow rather then see it be reduced to an embarrassing state.  When we the stakeholders are fed a bunch of happy crap and membership is continuing to fall someone is not making good decisions.  And don't try to convince me that the recent growth spirt is not based on the sudden influx of girls because it is.  Before long the liberal, all appeasing,  never offending national grand poo-pas wont have to worry because the loyal, long time Scouters will all be dead and there just won't be anyone to replace them.

[Mrjeff]

20 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

I'm one.  I've been called Reagan era republican.  I cringe in hindsight that I'm now associated with about eight years ago bringing in a BSA scout Indian regalia dance team to our cub scout pack for our pack program.  Was it wrong?  Not explicitly.  Do I want to be seen as the guy who brought them in?  Absolutely not.  

It's similar to telling crude inappropriate jokes.  I really don't have trouble with most and will defend a person's right to tell the jokes.  I just don't want to be seen as the guy telling the joke or asking someone else to tell the joke.  

BSA's use of indian lore in scouting has turned into an off-color joke.  Time to change.  Heck, the NFL and MLB made the change.  Time for BSA to clean up.

Unless you are a tribal member with tribal status and can speak on behalf of First Nation citizens, then you are not one. You are entitled to your ideas and opinions, but really "don't have a dog in the fight."  Since you like to mention sports teams,  why don't you do a little research into the Florida State Seminole and see where they stand on the issue.

[KublaiKen]

We're like the dinosaurs, but we have the advantage of seeing the comet coming. Please keep me apprised of how hiding your head in the sand works out.

[fred8033]

20 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

Unless you are a tribal member with tribal status and can speak on behalf of First Nation citizens, then you are not one. You are entitled to your ideas and opinions, but really "don't have a dog in the fight."  Since you like to mention sports teams,  why don't you do a little research into the Florida State Seminole and see where they stand on the issue.

No need to be rude.

My "dog in the fight" is being an OA member and my not wanting to be seen as prejudiced.  Cultural appropriation is a hot topic.  Many reasonably view it as yet another form of discrimination.  I'm very conservative, but I see the arguments as reasonable.  

"Speak on behalf" ... I read one of the above articles.  It had a good point.  No one really has the right to speak on behalf of the tribe to "give" permission.  The speaker himself (a tribal member) well represented reasons for not using the Lenapi lore.  

It's time for OA to stand on it's own honor; not a caricature of another culture.

Edited January 11, 2023 by fred8033

[Mrjeff]

6 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

No need to be rude.

My "dog in the fight" is being an OA member and my not wanting to be seen as prejudiced.  Cultural appropriation is a hot topic.  Many reasonably view it as yet another form of discrimination.  I'm very conservative, but I see the arguments as reasonable.  

"Speak on behalf" ... I read one of the above articles.  It had a good point.  No one really has the right to speak on behalf of the tribe to "give" permission.  The speaker himself (a tribal member) well represented reasons for not using the Lenapi lore.  

It's time for OA to stand on it's own honor; not a caricature of another culture.

Not being rude simply stating that if you are not a member of the first nation you really don't have a complaint that needs to be the basis of policy.  Exactly is the speaker?  Is he a chief, an elder or a fringe radical?  WHO IS PUTTING THIS STUFF OUT THERE?  Why is it so hard to answer this question, doesn't anybody know or is it just made up BS used by people to advance their own agenda?  Like I  said before, I have never met or spoken to a Native American who has any issue with the OA and the use of Native American regalia.   Somebody somewhere can find something offensive in anything.  If its offensive to you then you have a choice not to do it.  You do not get to choose whether or not I do it.

[Mrjeff]

22 minutes ago, KublaiKen said:

We're like the dinosaurs, but we have the advantage of seeing the comet coming. Please keep me apprised of how hiding your head in the sand works out.

I'm a little confused.  

[fred8033]

35 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

Not being rude simply stating that if you are not a member of the first nation you really don't have a complaint that needs to be the basis of policy.  

I'm just an OA member embarrassed by my organizations practices.  Is it a huge embarrassment?  No.  My embarrassment is more about not wanting to be associated with the practice.

I should be proud of everything about OA.  It's the whole point.  OA is an honor society.  It's about service and fellowship.  Instead, OA has as major area that I'm embarrassed to talk about.  

 

35 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

Exactly is the speaker?  Is he a chief, an elder or a fringe radical?  WHO IS PUTTING THIS STUFF OUT THERE?  Why is it so hard to answer this question, doesn't anybody know or is it just made up BS used by people to advance their own agenda?  

https://ictnews.org/news/order-of-the-arrow-is-a-secret-scout-society-in-the-spirit-of-the-lenni-lenape-a-lenape-leader-disagrees

Lenni Lenape elder and tribal pastor John Norwood responded to Indian Country Today in an email, that his view on the Order of the Arrow’s adherence to said traditions and practices are plainly “not authentic.”

“It is my understanding that the original ‘lore and ceremony’ of the Boy Scouts of America, Order of the Arrow was allegedly based upon what was claimed to be Lenape culture, although I am uncertain as to whether that remains true, Norwood wrote in an email. 

 

The order was “based upon a version of the old Northern Unami dialect of Lenape, called ‘Mission Lenape,’ which was probably gleaned from Moravian missionary documents going back to the 18th and early 19th centuries.

“The BSA/OA's use of Native dress and ceremony originated around the time that other non-Native organizations adopted Native dress, lore, and ceremony for their usage, ironically during a period in history when many Natives were discouraged from embracing our own tribal culture and identity and when government and social forces sought to terminate tribes. Often such groups with a history of using Native dress, lore, and ceremonies will claim that permission was granted by some “Indian” at some point in the past. Whether or not this is true is immaterial. No single individual tribal person has the authority to place the cultural knowledge and property rights of a tribal nation into the public domain.”

 

Norwood said that no matter the intentions, the wearing of Native dress by non-Native people is appropriation.

"While I respect each tribe’s right to its own perspective on the issue, I believe that no matter the sincerity of the participants, the use of Native dress and ceremonies (even when accurately portrayed) by non-Natives is a misappropriation of our culture. I appreciate the effort to consult with area tribes, as expressed in the OA manual. However, this should be done in order to gain an understanding of, and appreciation for, regional tribal heritage, not in order to mimic it." 

 

"The problem with gaining permission to use tribal dress and ceremony from regional tribes is that the history of the United States includes the disruption and displacement of tribes to the extent that a region may not contain all of its original indigenous tribes, which would still have a claim to the cultural heritage being appropriated. Moreover, even if one generation of an authentic tribe granted such permission, another generation would still have the right to withdraw such permission. Also, there are some non-historic cultural enthusiast groups that illegitimately claim tribal identity and authority, which would fraudulently grant such permission to those seeking their blessing to “play Indian.”

 

Norwood says using a drum for "Native" song created by non-Native people is also appropriating culture.

"The songs and ceremonies and regalia of our people belong to our people. They represent a heritage that has passed from one generation to the next during centuries of persecution. Some elements of regalia or songs or ceremonies are particular to a clan or family or society within a tribe and require some personal achievement and/or special permission in order to gain the right of use, even for tribal people."

Edited January 11, 2023 by fred8033

[BlueandSilverBear]

This is an opportunity to make OA relevant while bringing BSA back to the experience that most of us Scouters want for our kids.  It's not hard to imagine...

• The arrow flies true, just as the order remains true to the Scout Oath and Scout Law.
  • Reinforce the basics...
• The arrow on a compass points north, just as the Order of the Arrow always points its members back toward service to others.
  • Service at camps, service to Troops, service to Packs...
• The arrow represents excellence in scout skills. Archery is a scout skill taught from Cub Scouts up through the Archery merit badge in Scouts BSA.
  • Sounds like a great way to serve at the range...
• The arrow represents a Scouting ideal. Originally inspired by American Indian legends, the Order of the Arrow looks to American Indians and First Nations as the cultures with the longest and deepest knowledge  of and connection with the natural environment of the Americas.
  • This part requires making Make REAL efforts to SERVE with Native communities in conservation efforts.  It probably requires admitting that the OA has often gotten things wrong in the past.  Work to create Trail Crew programs with tribes and Native conservation groups.  Learn and appreciate culture while working together to protect something that we both love.

Keep the name.  Keep brotherhood and service.  Leave dress up and dance teams in the past... those don't provide anything that can't be accomplished in another way. Make real efforts to serve and learn.