It's finally come to this

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, BlueandSilverBear said:

This is an opportunity to make OA relevant while bringing BSA back to the experience that most of us Scouters want for our kids.  It's not hard to imagine...

I like your write ups.  Perhaps later as arrowmen grow to brotherhood or vigil, the original connection with American Indian lore can be discussed.  I don't see a useful purpose during the original ceremonies.  The arrow has been a world-wide concept for thousands of years and is a good construct for OA.

[Eagledad]

Wow, with friends like this, who needs enemies. I’ve been active in scouting one way or another for almost 60:. In all those years, I have never seen AO show disrespect to the American Indian/idigenous/Native American culture. In fact OAs actions are typically respectful with the intention of showing honor. Now if the culture has changed how it looks at such things, fine, we change to continue showing respect. But done disparage the OA for living the scout law in their efforts.
 

On the other hand, I’m not sure OA can get back to the honor and respect that the organization once had because our culture doesn’t like individualism that sets piers apart. OA is/was an honor program that recognized scouts who set themselves apart as outdoorsmen and servants. They used to be the go to experts of camping skills. And, they usually were humble in their service to others. The organization used to require a scout prove discipline and maturity of camping and serving. Now many troops want all their scout to get elected in to the organization no matter their experience or maturity. Seems there is no real desire for a true honor program in the BSA.

Barry

[malraux]

Mixing scouting honor/service society with cultural appreciation/preservation always has seemed to be a less than ideal mix. It worked better in the past when concerns about appropriation were less and when fascination with the first peoples were more common. 

I personally haven't seen a well done ceremony in person. It's been pretty cringe inducing even back in the 90s.

[HashTagScouts]

To being the Scout Law into it - obedient. If the organization moves to strike regalia, going rogue is not exactly keeping to that point of the SL. At the end of the day, the AIA issue is one where we have to see it from the perspective of Native Americans, and Native Americans only. If we put a bunch of teens in clerical collars and had them start reciting a Mass, we'd have quite a few Catholics who would be up in arms. The breadth of what the OA was attempting with the "localized regalia" was a step in the right direction. Seeing just the comments in this thread make me recognize how necessary that was. Warbonnets worn by tribes from the Plains were spiritual items, not actual attire worn daily, and they don't represent well Native American from any other part of North America. Dancing,  drumming, face painting were also spiritual activities, not everyday things. What we have is ceremonies that are relaying a narrative that involves named individuals being portrayed by other named individuals- all of whom are fictitious. So, to any that feel it is appropriation, they are not wrong. I never felt that the ceremonies performed for Cub Scouts were appropriate nor necessary. Most of those involved a narrative about Akela (which was incorrect, in that the Akela from the Cub program is taken from The Jungle Book, not anything Native American), placed into a story using Native American theme performed by kids in Native American attire, delivered to even younger kids that mostly had no idea what the OA even is.

I have Native American DNA- not nearly enough I'd ever identify myself on any census as Native American. But I know many individuals who can and do. Are they terribly turned off by Native American iconography in the BSA? Not entirely, but nearly all would prefer it was done in a better way, that leaves Scouts and parents exposed to greater knowledge of what it is. For example, using actual Native American names for a camp might be OK, but using made-up names that sound Native American, not so much. Using the actual name of a Native American individual, such as Tecumseh or Pontiac, in a narrative that is factual to that individual would be OK. Making up a name that sounds Native American, not so much- unless it was fully explained to the audience of that narrative that what is being displayed is fictional. and if you did that, it pretty much says that the narrative is not quite so significant. I will say that for myself and some of my friends who are members of Native American tribal nations , we found a lot of the commentary when the Cleveland Indians changed their name to be just awful. The use of the name Indians, many NAs can deal with- it was using an image of a big-nosed red-faced "Indian" and calling it Chief Wahoo that was the offensive part. Similar to the Atlanta Braves- the name isn't quite the issue, nor the arrowhead, it's the tomahawk chop. If you want to call a sports team Warriors, Chief, etc. are those wrong? Not necessarily, but what imagery you associate to them could be.  

For those that are Vigil in this thread, think back to the Vigil ceremony. It is not laden with the same Native American thematics. It's much more of what I would describe as a spiritual psalm. Can we recreate that to use for Ordeal and Brotherhood? Absolutely. And I see that as the direction we will eventually go. The arrow itself isn't necessary to go. Lodge names, for the most part, will probably go unchanged. Titles such as Chief may not be necessary to go. But the imagery will change. Many of the youth I work with now as an adviser don't see the Native American imagery as captivating or necessary. And if that is where the majority of the youth are at, then it isn't quite so significant to me we keep things because it would upset us older folks. In regards the comment that the OA isn't quite as "honorable as it used to be", that's a bigger problem for the BSA in my view, not so much the OA. My belief is if you enacted advancement standards appropriately and used Commissioners correctly to make sure they are followed to the letter, you'd see membership drop at least 25% immediately, and that is the thing that no one higher up in the BSA is going to find acceptable. Until we are willing to accept those outcomes, the Oa is just left to have to adapt to what the BSA itself is.

[Mrjeff]

I think that you have identified the issues!  We have turned into a culture that accepts good enough rather then quality.  Everybody who shows up gets a pass no matter how they participated. Everything should be available to everyone and everyone's rights and feelings are more important then your own.  Thomas Payne stated that if you are afraid to offend you cannot be honest.  I would venture a guess that if you asked, your Scouts wouldn't even know who Thomas  Payne was.  Perhaps the BSA and all of its goals,nstandards and traditions has run its course, outlived its usefulness and should just pass into obscurity.  This may be a better fate then turning it into something that is only a shell of what it once was.

[Mrjeff]

10 hours ago, fred8033 said:

I'm just an OA member embarrassed by my organizations practices.  Is it a huge embarrassment?  No.  My embarrassment is more about not wanting to be associated with the practice.

I should be proud of everything about OA.  It's the whole point.  OA is an honor society.  It's about service and fellowship.  Instead, OA has as major area that I'm embarrassed to talk about.  

 

https://ictnews.org/news/order-of-the-arrow-is-a-secret-scout-society-in-the-spirit-of-the-lenni-lenape-a-lenape-leader-disagrees

Lenni Lenape elder and tribal pastor John Norwood responded to Indian Country Today in an email, that his view on the Order of the Arrow’s adherence to said traditions and practices are plainly “not authentic.”

“It is my understanding that the original ‘lore and ceremony’ of the Boy Scouts of America, Order of the Arrow was allegedly based upon what was claimed to be Lenape culture, although I am uncertain as to whether that remains true, Norwood wrote in an email. 

 

The order was “based upon a version of the old Northern Unami dialect of Lenape, called ‘Mission Lenape,’ which was probably gleaned from Moravian missionary documents going back to the 18th and early 19th centuries.

“The BSA/OA's use of Native dress and ceremony originated around the time that other non-Native organizations adopted Native dress, lore, and ceremony for their usage, ironically during a period in history when many Natives were discouraged from embracing our own tribal culture and identity and when government and social forces sought to terminate tribes. Often such groups with a history of using Native dress, lore, and ceremonies will claim that permission was granted by some “Indian” at some point in the past. Whether or not this is true is immaterial. No single individual tribal person has the authority to place the cultural knowledge and property rights of a tribal nation into the public domain.”

 

Norwood said that no matter the intentions, the wearing of Native dress by non-Native people is appropriation.

"While I respect each tribe’s right to its own perspective on the issue, I believe that no matter the sincerity of the participants, the use of Native dress and ceremonies (even when accurately portrayed) by non-Natives is a misappropriation of our culture. I appreciate the effort to consult with area tribes, as expressed in the OA manual. However, this should be done in order to gain an understanding of, and appreciation for, regional tribal heritage, not in order to mimic it." 

 

"The problem with gaining permission to use tribal dress and ceremony from regional tribes is that the history of the United States includes the disruption and displacement of tribes to the extent that a region may not contain all of its original indigenous tribes, which would still have a claim to the cultural heritage being appropriated. Moreover, even if one generation of an authentic tribe granted such permission, another generation would still have the right to withdraw such permission. Also, there are some non-historic cultural enthusiast groups that illegitimately claim tribal identity and authority, which would fraudulently grant such permission to those seeking their blessing to “play Indian.”

 

Norwood says using a drum for "Native" song created by non-Native people is also appropriating culture.

"The songs and ceremonies and regalia of our people belong to our people. They represent a heritage that has passed from one generation to the next during centuries of persecution. Some elements of regalia or songs or ceremonies are particular to a clan or family or society within a tribe and require some personal achievement and/or special permission in order to gain the right of use, even for tribal people."

This is really awsome and displays just how easy it is to do a Google search and cut/paste one article to substantiate your opinion, for which you are completly entitled.  However; it does not negate the fact that I have never met a First Nation citizen who has any negative thoughts or issues with our current Order of the Arrow practices or customs.

[SiouxRanger]

On 12/29/2022 at 3:15 PM, HashTagScouts said:

Sad day for sure. Expected announcements tonight that regalia of any kind will no longer be permissible. Also that the 24 month window to complete Ordeal from election date will be permanent. A lot of us are questioning exactly what it is we are trying to keep alive at this point. I'm interested to see if they make any comment on the proposed idea of eliminating the Ordeal overnight - that's pretty much the deal breaker for me.

I've never been too involved with the OA, though an Ordeal member. My Troop was small, there were few of us in the OA, and fewer yet were interested in attending OA activities.  Somehow, time just did not allow. My huge involvement in Scouting otherwise just cast OA to the shadows.  That being said, I do understand that the OA is a huge factor spurring the involvement in Scouting for many who pass from youth to adults.

So that I can understand you better, with respect to your post, from whom were you expecting announcements regarding regalia?

The 24 month window, is that more or less than previously, and does extending or shortening it have some effect on the OA, and what effect?

The Ordeal Overnight-what are the arguments for and against eliminating it?  (I did the overnight, and thought it was great.  I bought into the whole Ordeal Weekend and live it to this day.)

Thanks.

Edited January 12, 2023 by SiouxRanger
spelling typo and punctuation.

[HashTagScouts]

1 hour ago, SiouxRanger said:

I've never been too involved with the OA, though an Ordeal member. My Troop was small, there were few of us in the OA, and fewer yet were interested in attending OA activities.  Somehow, time just did not allow. My huge involvement in Scouting otherwise just cast OA to the shadows.  That being said, I do understand that the OA is a huge factor spurring the involvement in Scouting for many who pass from youth to adults.

So that I can understand you better, with respect to your post, from whom were you expecting announcements regarding regalia?

The 24 month window, is that more or less than previously, and does extending or shortening it have some effect on the OA, and what effect?

The Ordeal Overnight-what are the arguments for and against eliminating it?  (I did the overnight, and thought it was great.  I bought into the whole Ordeal Weekend and live it to this day.)

Thanks.

The National Planning Meeting took place in December, where the new National Chief & Vice Chief, as well as the two Region Chiefs, were elected. The overall business of the Order is discussed at the NPM, and any changes that impact the coming year are announced. They held a FB Live "Fireside Chat" on the final night to give highlights. It's been anticipated that the end of regalia is not a question of if, but when, so many were waiting for this NPM. Today, they sent an email out with summary::

https://oa-bsa.org/article/order-arrow-national-updates-2023?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NPM Recap January OA Today&utm_content=NPM Recap January OA Today+CID_b080ae652133460be131aaf98e6eb2c7&utm_source=OA eNews Campaigns&utm_term=SEE ARTICLE

Previous was 12 months. If you didn't complete in the 12 months, you had to be elected all over again. I understood the reason for the temporary 24 months- 18 is just odd. If you didn't complete in 18 months, you basically are just "on the shelf" for 6 months now, waiting for your next unit election. To me, if we were going beyond 12 months, then should have just said 24 months.

The arguments for the overnight are it is the entire purpose of the Ordeal: a night away to reflect on what challenges you are asked to place upon yourself, and whether you are worthy for the honor. The arguments against is that a night under the stars without all your stuff is not fun for some, so it shouldn't be required. The conversations that have been occurring are more than just the overnight, it's about making the whole Ordeal weekend optional- essentially, get elected, and the Lodge hands you a sash and a handbook and you are a member, but come to Ordeal if you want to.  

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by HashTagScouts

[Eagle1993]

6 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

18 is just odd

One issue for some Troops, including ours.  OA election in March and our council doesn't have a summer camp.  So, for Ordeal you have two opportunities.  One a few weeks after selecting and one in the fall.  If you have a fall sport (many youth) you really only have a few weeks notice and may have a conflict.  Some Troops don't let scouts know until summer camp, so for those, they really have only one opportunity for Ordeal.

This will give scouts a bit more time to attend Ordeal the next spring. Will it make a big difference, who knows.

[InquisitiveScouter]

We always announce the results of the election selection, as call-outs are hit or miss in our council.  Mostly miss.

That way, we make sure our candidates get the info they need when they need it, to make the timing for Ordeals.

 

[scoutldr]

8 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

Norwood said that no matter the intentions, the wearing of Native dress by non-Native people is appropriation.

Doesn't that work both ways?  And should I no longer agree to wear the big sombrero as they sing "Feliz Cumpleanos" to me at my local Mexican restaurant?  

[InquisitiveScouter]

2 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

Doesn't that work both ways?  And should I no longer agree to wear the big sombrero as they sing "Feliz Cumpleanos" to me at my local Mexican restaurant?  

There you go, trying to use logic again.  Silly goose...

[MikeS72]

8 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

However; it does not negate the fact that I have never met a First Nation citizen who has any negative thoughts or issues with our current Order of the Arrow practices or customs.

I am sure that all of us could find some group of people that we have never met, that does not mean that they do not exist.

I was a part of our ceremonial team for 6 years as a youth, well over half a century ago.  I am still very much active in the OA, and yes, I also cringe both when I see some of the pictures that show lodges in the northeast and southeast whose ceremonialists are decked out in plains regalia, complete with double trail head dresses; as well as when I think back to what we wore and the gallons of red body paint we used more than half a century ago.

I also came back to this thread this morning to post the link that @HashTagScouts posted during the night.  One of the problems with online forums is a little bit of knowledge mixed in with a whole lot of speculation ends up with people getting fired up over something that may or may not ever come to be.  In my opinion, if Goodman and Edson were still around, I do not think they would be offended by seeing a ceremony conducted in uniform.

[scoutldr]

41 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

There you go, trying to use logic again.  Silly goose...

Owa...Tagu...Siam

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, MikeS72 said:

if Goodman and Edson were still around, I do not think they would be offended by seeing a ceremony conducted in uniform.

The first ones were in black robes.

Here's a pic from the birth of my home lodge:

 

You could easily ditch the headdresses.  And you do not need a fictional story of Native Americans to promulgate ideas about Brotherhood, Cheerfulness, and Service.

You could easily find stories to demonstrate these during the Colonial period, or during the American Revolution, or the westward expansion, etc.  It should not be offensive to find and tell a story from some native tribes to demonstrate these principles, either.  They need not be from your area particularly, since you are ditching the wearing of clothing to mimic.

Or, if a lodge wanted to incorporate stories from their local first peoples, there's plenty... 574 recognized tribes in the US.

https://www.usa.gov/tribes

P.S.  Gotta love the ties!!

P.P.S.  Also see https://oa-bsa.org/history/first-ceremony

Edited January 12, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter