It's finally come to this

[Mrjeff]

Sorry guys but it doesn't have to beagovernment agency to violate the civil liberties of a US Citizen.  I also know very well that the individuals on the National OA Committee can be identified but just try and contact someone and unless you are part of that inner circle, you just can't.   As for withholding information,  unless its some top secret stuff that is vital to national security, it needs to be distributed.  That committee makes decisions that impact lodges world wide.  (I have no intention of getting into a discussion about lodges located outside of the United States.)  They have no idea how things work in various areas of the country and without due diligence and proper research, have no business making these decisions.   I know exactly what happened when the issue of the cub cross over ceremony took place, and there wasn't much input from the national level youth leadership.  That nonsense that was presented at NOAC was disapproved by the majority of the Lodge Chiefs in attendance!  There are only about 250 lodges in existence and that is not a lot.  Every single lodge Chief could be contacted before making these decisions.   Whenever I have had any interaction with "national" leadership I always get the brush off  and nothing is addressed.   If someone is on the infamous and mysterious national committee then be responsible for what you do.  The BSA no longer dictates uniform policies, it's all just suggested and encouraged.  If thats the case, the OA can only suggest and encourage in a way that is is in line with the parent organization.   Obviously the decisions made by national level leadership have not been the best as our membership numbers clearly and the excuse about "difficult times" is getting really old because the hardships are right in the face of the unit leaders who have to deal with the issues with the kids who join scouting to have a good time.  The OA would be better off if the national committee took care of NOAC and leave the lodges and the section alone.

[jcousino]

The local and membership really has no required say in the action as earlier members have point out The OA is totally own within the BSA The nation BSA level is the only answer that matters. sorry but that's what is comes to. Make too much noise and you will get a letter saying We thank you for your past services, but they and you are no longer needed. Without recourse. (Private group can manage their membership as they see fit)

[Eagle94-A1]

12 hours ago, KublaiKen said:

@Mrjeff, if you Google "order of the arrow national committee," here is the very first thing that pops up:

https://oa-bsa.org/about/leadership/national-committee

On a positive note, I see that 4 youth members  are on the committee of 36 members. That is a big improvement from a few years back when it was 3 youth members on the committee of 60+ members.

However it is still too many adults, even if I personally know some of them, and in one case worked with one of them back in the day. I know decisions that National has made have ticked off the youth as well as long tenured Scouters. I have seen an entire lodge protest some of those decisions in the past.

As for OA being the "All Stars" sadly that is no longer the case, and has not been in quite some time. When OA changed election procedures back in the mid 1990s, a lot of old timers predicted what we are seeing now. "Sash and Dash" is rampant, and the OA has lost so much prestige as a result. NONE  of my currently eligible Scouts are interested. And the only reason why the last 2 OA members from my troop did it was because Dad was OA back in the day. Between the loss of camps, no inspirational ceremonies, and everyone who wants to be in can be voted in, OA is a pale shadow of itself.

As for ceremonies, while they should not be the focus of the OA, they were what inspired members. Between essentially doing away with AOL and Cross Over Ceremonies, to the gradual removal of regalia, we are losing our heart as an Order.

 

I too have kept the Vigil.

[MikeS72]

18 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

Sorry guys but it doesn't have to beagovernment agency to violate the civil liberties of a US Citizen. 

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Pretty sure that members of the National OA Committee do not also sit in Congress.

[Armymutt]

16 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

The Native American iconography (seems to be the new way National is referring to it, which probably does mean it isn't just regalia but also the language/names such as those used in ceremony scripts, and probably position titles- if "clan" wasn't acceptable anymore, I'd imagine "chief" isn't too far off from getting ditched) is "still under discussion on how best to implement". My guess is that they wanted to announce now, but cost assessment needs to be done- as I understand it, the shift away from the "iconography" is going to impact the whole BSA, not just the OA, so camp names/campsite names are being discussed as part of the deal. Not that I love that idea, but if you're going to tell the OA they can't do something, it is hypocritical if you don't change your whole operation.

This is the big issue.  If we are going to get rid of regalia, then we also need to ditch all AIA references - the names of lodges and chapters, the term "lodge", all the ceremonial texts, the names of many camps, and even the word "arrow".  I can't think of another culture in North America that is associated with the use of arrows.    

[yknot]

20 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

This is the big issue.  If we are going to get rid of regalia, then we also need to ditch all AIA references - the names of lodges and chapters, the term "lodge", all the ceremonial texts, the names of many camps, and even the word "arrow".  I can't think of another culture in North America that is associated with the use of arrows.    

Swiss culture. William Tell. 

[Armymutt]

4 minutes ago, yknot said:

Swiss culture. William Tell. 

So, Switzerland is in Europe, which is a little to the east of North America.

[yknot]

There are plenty of Swiss in North America and they've brought that iconography with them. 

[Oldscout448]

On 1/3/2023 at 2:01 PM, fred8033 said:

Link please?  I did not see anything about OA ordeal / regalia changes.  

It would not surprise me though.  It's been discussed many times.  OA ceremonies make many cringe with over-the-line cultural appropriation with caricatures that border on racism.  I know the ceremonies are to honor native american culture, but obviously not everyone agrees with that view.  Sadly, IMHO, it's time to remove native American references from OA.  

"Over the line cultural appropriation"  ok, I'll bite.  Exactly who has given themselves authority to draw that magical line?  Some Berkeley professor who babbles about the critical importance of  tolerance and diverse points of view while demanding that everyone accept and kowtow to his "personal reality"?   It's about time, no it's past time, that such people are told the shut the hell up, we don't care what they think.   

Every native American I've asked ( Huron, Cree, Cherokee, Sioux, Iroquois etc) has had no problem with the OA ceremonies, if they are done in a manner that shows respect and dignity to the Indian people.  Some actually did ceremonies with me in years past. 

" not everyone agrees with that view".  If we are demanding an organization that has a 100% approval rating we are going to be in for a long and disappointing wait.

Frankly, I would rather see the Order disbanded with some semblance of dignity than made into some pseudo moralistic " woke" entity that cheapens its memory.  

If BSA needs a new type of honor society, fine.  Let them find a new name for it.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Oldscout448

[satl8]

21 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

"Over the line cultural appropriation"  ok, I'll bite.  Exactly who has given themselves authority to draw that magical line?  Some Berkeley professor who babbles about the critical importance of  tolerance and diverse points of view while demanding that everyone accept and kowtow to his "personal reality"?   It's about time, no it's past time, that such people are told the shut the hell up, we don't care what they think.   

Every native American I've asked ( Huron, Cree, Cherokee, Sioux, Iroquois etc) has had no problem with the OA ceremonies, if they are done in a manner that shows respect and dignity to the Indian people.  Some actually did ceremonies with me in years past. 

" not everyone agrees with that view".  If we are demanding an organization that has a 100% approval rating we are going to be in for a long and disappointing wait.

All I will say, is there are native people out there that do not hold your views. They are not Berkeley professors, nor are they pushing political correctness. I will say that our Lodge has reached out the Elders of our local tribe and they in fact did have some restrictions and input to what was acceptable. We were like 90% of Lodges around the country and wore Northern Plains style costuming including the War Bonnets. We now wear simple ribbon shirts (and dresses for the females) with pants and some simple jewelry. Certainly keeping the conversations open to others is not going to happen by telling others to "shut the hell up, we don't care"  

 

A simple search has provided some articles- and while they are not entirely accurate, there are some interesting highlights. Such as the interview with a Lenni Lenape Elder...

Indian Country Today Series

 

YIB

I too have kept the Vigil

[Mrjeff]

8 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Pretty sure that members of the National OA Committee do not also sit in Congress.

Congress makes the laws, but anyone can violate those laws.  Employers, individuals, or governing bodies can all violate the civil liberties of another.  And can be held accountable. 

[Armymutt]

No one has been able to answer why the opinions of Indians who are against the OA are more valuable than those who are in favor of it.  I'm pretty sure the guy who wrote the latest incarnations of the ceremonial texts is an Indian.  Given his level of involvement in the OA as a youth and adult, I don't think he is against it.

[Eagle1993]

12 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

Congress makes the laws, but anyone can violate those laws.  Employers, individuals, or governing bodies can all violate the civil liberties of another.  And can be held accountable. 

BSA v Dale .... BSA has the 1st amendment right to revoke membership of someone who is gay.  I am 100% certain they have the 1st amendment right to revoke membership of someone who violates their policy on usage of regalia.  BSA has the power to set the policy for their organization (with some limits on protected classes in some cases).  If they decide that usage of regalia in the OA would violate their principles, they could kick them out.  

[Mrjeff]

This whole pile of $&!+ is based on supposition, conjecture and opinions.  Who are the people making this an issue.  Are they tribal members,mare they tribal elders,  do they have any tribal status at all? Or are these decisions being made by a committee who is just guessing?  An administration can fill committees with people who will forward their agenda.  I gald that I was informed that national committee members work hard because in 50+ years in scouting I don't know anyone on a national  anything. This post started out discussing how jacked up and sideways the OA has gotten for many Scouts and Scouters.  Maybee some of those hard working mystical national committee folks could use their unquestioned expertise to help improve the lodges that are not doing very well.   All of this stuff might be easier to stomach if anyone knew the reasoning behind this mess. I wish someone could direct me towards the first nation citizens who dislike what the OA is doing, because EVERY FIRST NATION MEMBER that I have actually spoken are very supportive.  Again, show me the valid comparative research and justify these decisions to each and every stakeholder,  or leave it alone and quit stirring  crap.

 

[Mrjeff]

3 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

BSA v Dale .... BSA has the 1st amendment right to revoke membership of someone who is gay.  I am 100% certain they have the 1st amendment right to revoke membership of someone who violates their policy on usage of regalia.  BSA has the power to set the policy for their organization (with some limits on protected classes in some cases).  If they decide that usage of regalia in the OA would violate their principles, they could kick them out.  

Right......try to revoke the membership of someone who is gay!!!! Also, the BSA has openly stated that they do not own the local councils, and each council is autonomous with their own board of directors.  Cant have it both ways.