It's finally come to this

[HashTagScouts]

On 12/24/2022 at 8:27 PM, Oldscout448 said:

not unlike loosing a good friend after a long illness.  There is sadness, a feeling of loss but also a sense of relief.

Sad day for sure. Expected announcements tonight that regalia of any kind will no longer be permissible. Also that the 24 month window to complete Ordeal from election date will be permanent. A lot of us are questioning exactly what it is we are trying to keep alive at this point. I'm interested to see if they make any comment on the proposed idea of eliminating the Ordeal overnight - that's pretty much the deal breaker for me.

[Oldscout448]

Speaking of deal breakers, for most of the team members it was the loss of being a part of something special, with a long proud history and traditions. Regalia was a big part of that.  I think it started way back in about 40 years ago when the pre get rewritten and the Ordeal changed from being a test of willing candidates to a make believe self help weekend. One that no one was allowed to fail. Because "hazing". The complete rewrite of the Brotherhood ceremony with the loss of the Brotherhood Obligation which an average 15 year old could easily understand, for some philosophical rambling (however much I may agree with it) was a major contributor as well. The major changes to the beginning and ending of the Ordeal ceremony were the last straw for a lot of our best ceremony guys. 

For my part it's the complete indifference of the chapter and lodge adult leadership to making the Ordeal a meaningful, significant event in the scouts life. They seem to be determined to do things in whatever way is the easiest.  The Friday night ceremony was set up right next to the parking lot so the candidates, and members, didn't have to walk another 100 yards. Rather than have the candidates sleep alone they all got crammed together on the lodge deck for the night. Because it was easier to keep an eye on them that way. I could go on and on.

I've spent many hours staring into campfires pondering these things, reviewing on my mind the things I promised on my honor as a Scout in the Obligations of the Ordeal, Brotherhood, and Vigil. I've done my best to keep them but it's no longer possible to " observe and preserve the traditions of the Order" given the current environment which seems to be actively moving away from them.  So I'm faced with the choice of keeping my oaths or staying in the organization.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by Oldscout448

[jcousino]

look like we got into the OA about the same time (1974). I do miss some of the things from back then. But some of things needed to go

   Taps outs where collar bones were broken or at least the scouts were taped into the to the ground

    Ordeal that was filled with fear that you would mess up

   Members who used it as a hazing zone of younger scout to the point of tears (not the USMC)

   Using and stealing other cultural symbols and dress

  Became just a workday at camp to most scouts

But we are not dealing with same scout movement or scouts (its all numbers not quality)

    Scouts are younger

     Symbolism has no meaning to scouts

    less prepared scout skills.

     everyone gets in

    it became an Order of Adults

Just my view 

  john

[fred8033]

Link please?  I did not see anything about OA ordeal / regalia changes.  

It would not surprise me though.  It's been discussed many times.  OA ceremonies make many cringe with over-the-line cultural appropriation with caricatures that border on racism.  I know the ceremonies are to honor native american culture, but obviously not everyone agrees with that view.  Sadly, IMHO, it's time to remove native American references from OA.  

[Armymutt]

6 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Link please?  I did not see anything about OA ordeal / regalia changes.  

It would not surprise me though.  It's been discussed many times.  OA ceremonies make many cringe with over-the-line cultural appropriation with caricatures that border on racism.  I know the ceremonies are to honor native american culture, but obviously not everyone agrees with that view.  Sadly, IMHO, it's time to remove native American references from OA.  

If no AI references, then it can't really be called the Order of the Arrow, can it?  I don't know of any other group in American history that is associated with the use of arrows.  I think the order has lost its way due to the influence of adults rather than the desire of the youth.  It used to be something to aspire to.  It was an exclusive club of sorts that only the best were elected to.  Now, it's become just another thing between 1st Class and Star.  

[mrjohns2]

1 hour ago, Armymutt said:

I think the order has lost its way due to the influence of adults rather than the desire of the youth.

None of the Scouts in our troop thought the AI influence was a plus. They all thought regalia was a stupid joke. So, it really will depend on the Scouts you talk to.

[InquisitiveScouter]

Yeah, it can go too far the other way, also, to where the local OA lodge is a quasi- Native American heritage preservation society.  The purpose of the Order gets lost then, too...  Too much focus on dance, drum, outfits, etc.

[carebear3895]

On 11/19/2022 at 6:20 PM, Armymutt said:

 The lodge doesn't emphasize ceremonies.  Instead, it's all about parties during the large gatherings.  

That is the culture NOA has pushed from the Top down.  I know a few years ago (won't give the exact year as it will dox) there was a push by the National Chief and National Vice Chief to eliminate the labor portion of the Ordeal and remove service from Fellowships/conclaves. You can probably guess how that conversation went...

OA is more of a frat house under the guise of "leadership development" than it is a true service organization these days. 

Edited January 4, 2023 by carebear3895

[mrjohns2]

3 hours ago, carebear3895 said:

OA is more of a frat house under the guise of "leadership development" than it is a true service organization these days. 

This and @Armymutt’s point on parties is very interesting and rings oddly true to me. I keep hearing “the OA is just free labor for camp”. I always saw it as a personal investment of time into camp. 

[carebear3895]

1 hour ago, mrjohns2 said:

I always saw it as a personal investment of time into camp. 

One of the missions of the Order was to promote camping, and more specifically in council camping. I was always happy to sign up for a service weekend because in my mind, that was MY camp. 

[AltadenaCraig]

When promoting OA in my unit I've likened it to the "Scout version of All Stars".  I expect there will always be a role for OA to fill the All-Star needs of our committed scouts.  What it looks like going forward is unclear, but I hope it always retains its "All Star" cache.

[Eagle1993]

My Troops interest in the OA is now gone. After seeing two camps sold a few years ago and various council mergers, OA service was limited to one of the two remaining camps and meetings were a 1.5 hour round trip commute.  Now we have sold the camp the OA spent the most time on.  I see no remaining interest in the OA from my scouts.  

I think there are ways to save it (change OA to districts, perhaps align to closer to venturing (with service/leadership)).  There are options.  If it remains unchanged I expect it will be a footnote in my council.

[Mrjeff]

I have recently learned that the mystical national committee, whoever they are, voted on something concerning AIA but are keeping it a secret.  A SECRET,  if they have the brass to think they can dictate what every lodge in the nation can do then they should at least publicize it and be willing to deal with the push back and fall out.  If they try to forbid the use of regalia and verbiage they may be in for a great big stinking and expensive 1st Amendment law suit.  That may get their attention.  After reading many of the previous posts I would like to remind the group that each lodge is SUPPOSED TO BE administered by youth members with the guidance of an advisor.  There are a lot of good excuses to avoid OA involvement and it does take some effort to support the lodge.  I'm pretty sure that the local lodge Advisor would welcome any help to make the lodge a success.  Rather then extinguishing the fire, the Supreme Chief should change the Lodge Advisor, and I'm sure that if someone would volunteer for that job, it would be accepted!

 

 

[KublaiKen]

@Mrjeff, if you Google "order of the arrow national committee," here is the very first thing that pops up:

https://oa-bsa.org/about/leadership/national-committee

It is, as you might imagine, a link to the names and positions of the members of the Order of the Arrow's National Committee. If you go the Order of the Arrow's web page, this is also linked through the home page. It isn't mystical, and "whoever they are" is easily and readily available information to anyone who even has the slightest jot of curiosity and iota of resourcefulness.

I point this out because who they are is very hard working volunteers like us, doing their best to guide a very traditional organization in times of social change. Their comet has to drag a very big tail, and that's old people like us. And I think it is disrespectful to frame them and their activities, and their decisions, as you have. Treating them as some sort of cabal with unknown identities is factually incorrect. That governing boards don't instantly announce decisions isn't some sign of secrecy;  major changes are frequently vetted and nuanced before being rolled out to membership. Sometimes replacements need to be put in place for the policies and procedures they are replacing. While you might have completely valid reasons for disagreeing with the policy they determine, I think it is in the best spirit of Brotherhood to give them the benefit of the doubt that they are doing their best at young ages to navigate some tough terrain. They wouldn't have to do any of this if our generations had. I think assigning them any other motive than the best interests of the Order of the Arrow and its chances for success, as they can best them see them, is unkind and misplaced.

Lastly, I am NOT an attorney, but I think a private organization's governing board might be allowed to make policy decisions about its own organization's procedures and activities without fear of First Amendment violation, especially since the Order of the Arrow National Committee is not the government.

Edited January 10, 2023 by KublaiKen

[HashTagScouts]

1 hour ago, Mrjeff said:

I have recently learned that the mystical national committee, whoever they are, voted on something concerning AIA but are keeping it a secret.  A SECRET,  if they have the brass to think they can dictate what every lodge in the nation can do then they should at least publicize it and be willing to deal with the push back and fall out.  If they try to forbid the use of regalia and verbiage they may be in for a great big stinking and expensive 1st Amendment law suit.  That may get their attention.  After reading many of the previous posts I would like to remind the group that each lodge is SUPPOSED TO BE administered by youth members with the guidance of an advisor.  There are a lot of good excuses to avoid OA involvement and it does take some effort to support the lodge.  I'm pretty sure that the local lodge Advisor would welcome any help to make the lodge a success.  Rather then extinguishing the fire, the Supreme Chief should change the Lodge Advisor, and I'm sure that if someone would volunteer for that job, it would be accepted!

 

 

It's not the government so 1st A has no bearing at all. National can do whatever it wants with the OA, they own it (literally), just as they can do whatever they want with any other part of the BSA. The "should they" is always what will be up for debate.

Right now, the only change that is certain is the length of time for an individual to complete their Ordeal from their election date is now 18 months. it was a "temporary change" since 2020 that it was extended from the normal 12 months to 24 months. Made sense while camps were shuttered, but not so sure why it was deemed as necessary now to go longer than 12 months. 

The Native American iconography (seems to be the new way National is referring to it, which probably does mean it isn't just regalia but also the language/names such as those used in ceremony scripts, and probably position titles- if "clan" wasn't acceptable anymore, I'd imagine "chief" isn't too far off from getting ditched) is "still under discussion on how best to implement". My guess is that they wanted to announce now, but cost assessment needs to be done- as I understand it, the shift away from the "iconography" is going to impact the whole BSA, not just the OA, so camp names/campsite names are being discussed as part of the deal. Not that I love that idea, but if you're going to tell the OA they can't do something, it is hypocritical if you don't change your whole operation.