Need advice on a difficult situation

[Calion]

Several months ago our then second-term, now third-term SPL (and son of the CC) brought me his book wanting a Scoutmaster conference for Life. He had nothing filled out; none of the other requirements for Life had been approved. Instead of giving him a Scoutmaster Conference, I looked up what merit badges he had earned, and worked with him to sign off as much as I could. However, I did not sign off his Oath and Law requirement. This Scout has been a cut-up for years, and had never taken his SPL responsibilities very seriously, often missing meetings and campouts with little or no notice, talking badly about other Scouts, keeping a hand in his pocket while leading the Pledge, Oath, and Law, and in general not comporting himself in a way I expect from an SPL shooting for Life Scout. I'm not saying he's a bad apple or anything, and I'm certainly not saying I have any animus toward him; he's done a (barely) satisfactory job as SPL (clearly most of his peers think so!). I just wasn't comfortable signing off on that requirement at that time. 

I told him that when he completed all his other Life requirements besides that one (and SM conference, of course), to come back to me and we'd discuss his Oath and Law requirement, and in the meantime I asked him to try to take his role as a Scout and as SPL more seriously. He agreed. In the intervening months I mentioned this to him a couple more times, trying to make clear what I expected from him, and he acknowledged it without complaint. 

Recently, he comes to me again, asking for a Scoutmaster conference. I look at his book and see that all of the remaining requirements have been signed off by our unit commissioner/former Scoutmaster/treasurer/equipment coordinator, who often attends meetings and campouts. 

 

I do not know what to do here. I feel that this Scout, instead of attempting to address the issues I raised either by remedying them or discussing them with me, went behind my back to get everything signed off by someone else. I haven't even authorized  this Scouter to sign things off, though I never told him I didn't want him to either; it hasn't come up before, and as he's not an ASM, and has been around much longer than I, it didn't really occur to me to tell him what he could and could not do. 

Advice? There wasn't time to give that SM conference when he asked, but next time I'm going to be on the spot. 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Calion

[wearrepair]

Some questions: how did he get star? You may have conferences with scouts other than for advancement - was he advised that he was not doing the SPL job up to par? The sign offs by another troop adult - The required merit badges were from certified counselors? Does he have plenty of time for eagle?

You want to make sure this young man does the requirements for star but nothing extra. Are there other youth leaders to assist him/you?

Sorry few answers. I remember the merit badge the most where the counselor made me comeback but, I have seen scouts turn away when faced with requirements not included by BSA 

Your job is tough, that's why you get the big bucks!

[Calion]

I don't know how he got Star; I was ASM then and had nothing to do with it. 

I have no reason to question his merit badges. He has time for Eagle still.

As I said, I spoke to him multiple times about his performance. I don't think he's done badly enough not to give him leadership time credit—we've certainly had worse SPLs. But him going around me to get signed off makes me even less kosher with him getting Star at this point. The thing is, I don't know what to do. Can I/should I refuse to sign his book for SM conference? What are my options here?

Edited November 14, 2022 by Calion

[SiouxRanger]

A legal analogy, for what it is worth, in a lawsuit, once a given judge has made a substantive ruling in the case, all the parties are stuck with that judge, unless later removed "for cause." The rule prevents "forum shopping," that is, skipping from judge to judge until you get one who issues a more favorable ruling.

You became the judge on this scout's case, having made a "ruling" on the merits of his advancement,

And it is dishonest of the Scout to approach another adult leader after having discussed matters with you and you having established the course forward for his advancement.

I'd discuss it with the other adult leader to determine whether the scout explained your comments and requirements to the other adult leader, or simply made no mention of the scout's conference with you. If the adult leader was made aware of the scout's conference with you and your requirements, how did that other adult leader deal with them (if at all)? Did the adult leader undermine your position by giving the scout a "pass?"

Perhaps the other adult was "duped" by the scout.  Hmmmm. Trustworthy.

In my troop, there is a sheet where notes of conferences with scouts are recorded and those notes are available for the adults conducting the next conference.  If such was available regarding this scout did the other adult volunteer ignore it? Where is the other adult's notes?  Those notes should address your notes/concerns.

No adult volunteer should take it upon themselves to countermand the work of another volunteer with respect to the advancement of a scout.

A scout rewarded for this behavior, if he did not fully inform the other adult, will learn little from the program or lessons of negative value.

Other than the damage done to a scout who games the system, self-inflicted, I am not too concerned about it, as the scout has deluded and damaged him/her self. If the scout is counseled and advised of his/her shortcomings and does not acknowledge the problem, little more can be done, realistically.

Some youth and adults will not embrace the principles of Scouting regardless of discussion, opportunities, counseling, etc.  And so be it. The "lead a horse to water" issue.

Nearly 50 years ago, a box of Scout Mirrors would arrive at Philmont for the Ranger Staff (at least).  On the back of each was the Dale Wimbrow poem, "The Man In The Glass." (Sometimes called "The Man In The Mirror." or, "The Guy In The Glass." )

I still have mine. (Maybe several.)

I think that they were sent by a professional scouter out of Milwaukee. (And if anyone has a name, I'd be appreciative.)

So, the text of the poem is (and, I've corrected spelling, and changed the vernacular-sorry, had to do; and, well, changed guy and fella.):

The Guy in the Glass

When you get what you want in your struggle for self,
And the world makes you King for a day,
Then go to the mirror and look at yourself,
And see what that man has to say.

For it isn’t your Father, or Mother, or Wife,
Who judgment upon you must pass.
The man whose verdict counts most in your life
Is the man staring back from the glass.

He’s the man to please, never mind all the rest,
For he’s with you clear up to the end,
And you’ve passed your most dangerous, difficult test
If the man in the glass is your friend.

You may be like Jack Horner and “chisel” a plum,
And think you’re a wonderful guy,
But the man in the glass says you’re only a bum
If you can’t look him straight in the eye.

You can fool the whole world down the pathway of years,
And get pats on the back as you pass,
But your final reward will be heartaches and tears
If you’ve cheated the man in the glass.

So, sadly, the scout who cheats the system will probably not know the consequences of their action until mid-life.

 

[SSScout]

Pelf. I miss that word, but the poem still rings true. 

[fred8033]

4 hours ago, Calion said:

... I told him that when he completed all his other Life requirements besides that one (and SM conference, of course), to come back to me and we'd discuss his Oath and Law requirement,  ... Recently, he comes to me again, asking for a Scoutmaster conference. I look at his book and see that all of the remaining requirements have been signed off ...

Yeah, the scout spirit requirement can be problematic in many different ways.  It should be obvious to most scouters that the scout spirit requirement is left to the SM to sign off.  Our SM did mention to us new leaders that he wanted to be the signer on that one.  ... As for the previous SM, boundaries can often get confused with transitions.  Your old SM might not have realized he was doing something wrong 

I have to ask ... do you think the scout did an end around you?  Was it intentional?  Or a spacey scout?  OR (my thinking) the former leader signed and the scout doesn't know how to really handle something unearned and is quiet waiting to see how it plays out. 

IMHO ... 

• Let the former scout leader know he should not be signing books for scouts in the troop.  Even more explicit, let him know you are keeping the scout spirit and SMC requirements for you to sign only.  Unit commissioners should know better.  They are to be a friend of the unit without stepping on toes.  ... I suspect this is the ugly problem of a former leader now being the unit commissioner.  
• Let all the unit leaders know that .... in a friendly way ...  you are reserving the scout spirit and SMC for you to sign only.  You have the right as the SM to decide how to delegate your signing authority.  Communicate it.  Get everyone on the same page.  ... Similar ... if it was my troop, only ASMs sign books.  Troop committee members don't work with scouts.  
  • You don't get to choose who can sign off on MBs or if the MBC signed correctly.  
  • BUT for rank requirements, the SM has 100% control over who is delegated to sign scout rank requirements.  
• SMC - Talk with the scout and sign.  It's not a pass / fail requirement.  The requirement is "did you have a conversation with your SM?"  ...   Honestly, he fulfilled the requirement months ago when you and he talked about the scout spirit requirement.  ...  I would have signed the SMC requirement at that time as a positive way to close out the discussion, where I said I expected more for scout spirit. 
• Let the scout know that you thought you explicitly said you wanted to be the signer of the scout spirit requirement.   Discuss with him.  Let him represent what happened in his words.   It might have been an honest misunderstanding.  But it calls attention to the issue.  Internally, he'll be squirming.  So be kind.  Ask him how he wants to handle the requirement.  If he says, he'll do better with the Eagle requirement, then call Life done.  Move on.  Set expectations for the Eagle signature, explicitly saying you will not accept anyone else signing.   ... AND THEN ... manage it as part of him earning Eagle.

Rank is not something to guard as earned or not earned.  It's a tool to affect character and growth.  So it's like a manager giving a compliment sandwich.  Start positive.  Communicate what you expect different and to change.  End positive.  

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by fred8033

[mrjohns2]

@fred8033Very sound, well reasoned, and nuanced advice. 

[fred8033]

15 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

@fred8033Very sound, well reasoned, and nuanced advice. 

Thanks.  I really question my advice these days as I don't spend all my life in scouting anymore.     I'll be moving onto my next journey soon.  I think that journey will be the health nut phase.

Edited November 15, 2022 by fred8033

[MattR]

One rule about signing off on rather subjective requirements is that there should be no surprises. I.e., it should be very clear to the scouts what's expected.

You're new so you're learning. Take it as a lesson for next time but sign off on this scout. Set expectations for everyone going forward, including this scout.

Speaking of which, what are the expectations of the spl and does this scout really know them? Even well meaning but sorta lazy teenagers require a lot of interaction with the SM to teach, coach and get them comfortable doing their por.

 

[fred8033]

18 hours ago, Calion said:

... SPL responsibilities ... keeping a hand in his pocket while leading the Pledge, Oath, and Law, ...

I meant to mention in my previous post.  I'm pretty lenient most of the time.  I'm more concerned with active and program than formalities.  BUT, this is a hard show stopper for me and is something that is immediately fixed.  If the SPL won't put his hand up for oath and law ... and especially the Pledge ... I'd remove the scout as SPL.  He's setting a bad example.  That's one of the most important roles of the SPL:  to set an example.  I'd immediately talk to the SPL at the next appropriate moment and talk about offending others by not showing respect to the Pledge.  Setting an example.  etc, etc.  ... IMHO, it's one of the few places that I do take a hard line.  We can argue about holding elbow at 90 degrees.  BUT, you don't keep your hands in your pocket during the pledge. Period.

Edited November 15, 2022 by fred8033

[SiouxRanger]

Most of us folks have not had any training on such conflict situations.

So, we are all left to invent a response.

(And do these issues not commonly arise and no protocol to deal with them?)

"And why would that be?"  --Downtown Abbey's Carson.

Be Prepared.
 

"Be Prepared" = If you are EVER caught off-guard, it is your fault. Period.

(You have to see NOW, Tomorrow, the day after, next week, next month…Forever.)

That is the standard of "Be Prepared."

[SiouxRanger]

At least is my standard.

And it is a cruel standard.

But is how it has to be.

[Armymutt]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

I meant to mention in my previous post.  I'm pretty lenient most of the time.  I'm more concerned with active and program than formalities.  BUT, this is a hard show stopper for me and is something that is immediately fixed.  If the SPL won't put his hand up for oath and law ... and especially the Pledge ... I'd remove the scout as SPL.  He's setting a bad example.  That's one of the most important roles of the SPL:  to set an example.  I'd immediately talk to the SPL at the next appropriate moment and talk about offending others by not showing respect to the Pledge.  Setting an example.  etc, etc.  ... IMHO, it's one of the few places that I do take a hard line.  We can argue about holding elbow at 90 degrees.  BUT, you don't keep your hands in your pocket during the pledge. Period.

I think the post implies that he keeps "a" hand in his pocket - probably the left one.  Sets a bad example, but not quite as bad as I believe you are envisioning.  I had to reread it the first time.

[Mrjeff]

Well, you have two choices............acknowledge that he got his book signed, have the conference and send him on his way.  Reward him for showing up and breathing and certenly don't hurt his feelings or get him upset.  Or stand your ground,  let him complain and get hurt feelings and ensure he earns his rewards without compromise or shortcuts.  I know exactly what I would do.

[Eagledad]

19 hours ago, Calion said:

I do not know what to do here. I feel that this Scout, instead of attempting to address the issues I raised either by remedying them or discussing them with me, went behind my back to get everything signed off by someone else. I haven't even authorized  this Scouter to sign things off, though I never told him I didn't want him to either; it hasn't come up before, and as he's not an ASM, and has been around much longer than I, it didn't really occur to me to tell him what he could and could not do. 

Advice? There wasn't time to give that SM conference when he asked, but next time I'm going to be on the spot. 

I had a similar situation with my first SPL. I wasn't really happy with his performance for my expectations. So, I took him out for pizza before the meeting so we could talk. After discussing family and other light topics, I asked how he though he was doing as SPL. I expected him to hemhal around without much details, and that is where I would discuss his performance. But, he instead broke a huge smile and started telling me (bragging really) about all the things he had done and was improving on. After ten minutes of his enlighting reflection, I had to admit he was doing a really good job and I needed to cut each of us some slack my my high expectations. 

I'm glad he was my first SPL because he taught me a great lesson that helped my Scoutmastering the rest of my career. Every scout is different with different personal expectations. Some scouts are just great leaders and do a great job. Some scouts aren't so good, but work their butts off to be as good as they are. While I had to set up expectations for scouts in all their activities, I also had to judge them under their terms of ability, personality, and character. Then, I had a starting place where I could measure their growth of performance instead of measuring them under my rigged expectations.

Through my career of adult scouting, I have had the opportunity to counsel many leaders who were frustrated with a scouts performance. I asked them, "have they grown?". If yes, then you are doing it right and you should be proud of both of you.

Most of us are not great leaders, so great leaders really stick out. But, we shouldn't let the great leaders set the bar for everyone. We adults need to guide each scout to set an individual bar the requires the scouts to stretch himself in making right decisions. But, not set the bar so high that the scout never sees himself growing and doing well. We adults are doing it right when each scout can say to himself, I like myself when I am scouting.

I personally learned to talk to scouts a lot so that I had an opportunity to say good job, and build a relationship to suggest improvement. I found that some scouts didn't even know when I was officially doing a SM Conference. But, at the same time, the scouts learn a lot about me during these discussions, and just watching me. They get to know what I expect and the priorities of their behavior. It's a long process for us adults to become productive role models, just like it is a long process for scouts to grow in their decision making. 

You also have to set some guidelines for the other adults. Mostly just to maintain consistency, not control.

While I haven't answered many of your questions on this discussion, I hope I've given food for thought that might help you as you progress with your program. 

Have a great Scouting week.

Barry