Leadership or Management in Scouting

[Mrjeff]

Many years ago part of the Wood Badge curriculum included defining leadership and the various leadership styles that are used in Scouting and everywhere else.  Leadership and management both involve getting people to do what you want them to do, period.  (This is simply a bare bones definition and not intended to create a huge discussion.)  I had the opportunity to converse with some important national level Scouters and was introduced to an incoming Grand Poo-Ba of something or other.  Someone made the comment that this in-comer had been in charge of a large company and certenly could manage his Scouting whatever.  The in-comer then smiled but didn't reply.  While in control of the company he was able to control his employees because if they didn't do what he said, he could terminate them and cut off their money, that simple.  If you can control someone's money or freedom you can control people and get them to do what you want them to do.  This does not qualify him as an expert on Scouting or demonstrate his ability to succeed.   Most Scouters are volunteers and pay for the privilege of volunteering.  This in turn requires special skill and knowledge to be successful in Scouting.  As volunteers don't rely on Scouting for their livelihood and can just walk away at anytime.  So, I would suggest that success in business does not equate with success in Scouting and running a company shouldn't be a requirement for an appointment to Grand Poo-Pa of the big whig board or committee.

[Sentinel947]

Agreed. This is still covered in Wood Badge, although it's framed as the difference between a Mentor and a Coach. Informal vs Formal power. 

I've noticed some Teachers and Military folks struggle as Scout volunteers because they are used to having formal social power and the ability to demand respect and wield that power if not obeyed. 

Our Scouts are our most important "volunteers". Scouting exists to serve them. 

[Eagle94-A1]

Wish professionals understood this. Sadly I have seen too many pros treat Scouters as employees, and rather poorly at that, and they walk away.

[Mrjeff]

I really think it's comical when someone talks about firing a Scouter.  I know of an employee suggested that a District Commissioner be fired.  At the time the Commissioner made up the "District Key 1" and had the support of the Council Executive.  This simple suggestion caused that employee to loose the trust and confidence of the other volunteers and caused him more problems then he could even imagine.   The political parties could learn something about politics by looking at the Boy Scouts 🤔🤫😉

[scoutldr]

Yes, the "Good Ole Boy/Girl" network is alive and well....

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, Mrjeff said:

I really think it's comical when someone talks about firing a Scouter.  I know of an employee suggested that a District Commissioner be fired....

When I was a DE, my SE wanted me  to "fire" the entire district committee and get new members. Reason being the council could not move forward (read they would not kowtow to council) with the entrenched volunteers. I had been a DE less than 8 months and still learning the community and building relationships when they wanted me to do this. I told him "who would I replace them with since they run the district and our success is their success?"

Sadly I have seen Scouter "fired." They questioned council so much, the SE placed them in the IVF as a result.

Most of the time, the pros make the Scouters' lives so miserable, we quit on our own. I cannot tell you how many district level folks, myself included, have given up doing stuff for the district because of mistreatment. I am focused on my troop, especially since every time I ask for help, council ignores me.

[InquisitiveScouter]

Removed...

 

Edited November 11, 2022 by InquisitiveScouter

[SiouxRanger]

6 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

I really think it's comical when someone talks about firing a Scouter.

I've seen it done multiple times.

And put on the IVF. Multiple times.

Quality people.

Kind.

[Jameson76]

This is one of the reasons I only work at the unit level.  I do volunteer and serve on my terms.  I would say the leaders in our troop (60 + Scouts and 12 + active leaders + committee) are on the same page.  The District Chair and DE wanted to do a meeting on FOS, we said no, send us a flyer with detail and we will distribute.  Then they wanted access to our parents e-mails, again, nope.  We'll handle it

Popcorn, nope.  Camp cards, nope.

Focus is program, outings, etc.  I enjoy mentoring the youth, seeing them succeed.  Helping them deliver program to their peers.  Way way back in the day did some district stuff.  Really unfulfilling and felt most meetings were checking a box for some meaningless District set of goals.

Lo these many years have really just had a great time being a Scout.  Only real council interaction is at summer camp.

[5thGenTexan]

I try to get the idea across to Scouts that there is a difference in a "Leader" and a "Boss".  One tells people what to do and the other identifies peoples strengths and abilities and matches those things to a particular task.

 

I have dealt with adult volunteers who have served in the military and try to bring that style of management to the Pack / Troop.  Doesnt work well...

 

[SiouxRanger]

6 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I try to get the idea across to Scouts that there is a difference in a "Leader" and a "Boss".

Being from a very small organization and even at that, "leader" is better that "Boss." Long ago, I learned that lesson-as an SPL I think.

Even just this day is the lesson's principle brought home to me, awaiting documents I requested and was told that they would be emailed to me several days ago, which never arrived, in following up on my request for those documents…

I sent an email in which I could have said:

"You told me you that would forward those documents to me and they have not arrived…so where have things fallen down?" (Accusatory and puts the recipient on the defensive

Instead I called, and said,

"You were going to 'look into' getting me some documents…"

Both present the same message but in a manner that is a non-threatening to the person responsible.  And the sought documents arrived.

The lesson is, Threaten and folks will "clam-down" and resist; Commiserate with their work-load and they will attend to the issue.

And such is "Leadership" in my world.

[fred8033]

On 11/11/2022 at 9:35 PM, Jameson76 said:

Focus is program, outings, etc.  I enjoy mentoring the youth, seeing them succeed.  Helping them deliver program to their peers.  Way way back in the day did some district stuff.  Really unfulfilling and felt most meetings were checking a box for some meaningless District set of goals.

I've begun to believe those that volunteer at district level tend to hurt their own scout units.  Not all, but a good number.  Distractions.  Confused priorities.  Mixed signals.  A person only has so much time.  Time to work a full time professional job to earn money.  Marriage and their own kids.  Unit volunteering.  District volunteering.  As we've seen scouting affect marriages, I've begun to accept that there is a feedback loop going on also at the district to unit level.  There are some advantages having a district volunteer in your scouting unit, but there are also big risks going the other way.

[Armymutt]

I'm not sure what types of military people you guys are dealing with.  Our district volunteers are probably close to 70% military - either active or retired - and runs really well.  Granted, these are field grade officers and senior NCOs, so we are used to working in collaborative environments rather than coercive.  The whole thing hinges on the notion that one signed up to serve an organization and sometimes that service is in the form of something uncomfortable or undesirable.  Most of us are used to being handled those situations without the ability to walk away.  It becomes second nature to focus on the mission and just do what is needed to accomplish it.  Granted, this is also in a community that is typically a bit more...um, "more"...than your average military member.

[Eagledad]

The situation isn't just Scouting, but any organization that relies on volunteers to run the program. And, it is a double complex realty because volunteers are generally not trained or have expert skills for their expected tasks. In fact, volunteer work IS on the job training. Which is why units with adults who had a youth scouting experience are usually far ahead of units with no youth scouting experience. 

As for volunteers with a military experience, they typically respect the leadership a bit more than non military experienced volunteers. The most entertaining units to watch are the ones with a main leader who has military experience, but the rest of the adults don't.

Barry

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 minute ago, Eagledad said:

The most entertaining units to watch are the ones with a main leader who has military experience, but the rest of the adults don't.

Entertaining?  Elaborate, please?

As a retired military member deeply involved in our unit, I find that parents and other volunteers greatly appreciate my direct style, and that I hold Scouts and adults accountable for their actions, and to live up to the promises they make.  If you agree to serve, and then you don't (absent some extenuating circumstances), we simply thank the volunteers for their interest, and move along...

Now, I do wish I could give out Article 15's, as there have been a few adults who certainly deserve them 😜  But, it is much easier to "trim the dead wood" in a Scout unit than it is in the military

I actually find that the average person without military experience fares worse in those leadership roles...  ref @Armymutt above...