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Unit leader coverage for eagle paperwork?

curious_scouter
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curious_scouter Senior Member

curious_scouter

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Our SM is away for an extended period (next 6 meetings we think).  Like away-away, not just missing meetings.  I am going to assume the SM role in the new year, and so with that in mind and the absence known I have been delegated most Unit Leader responsibilities like blue cards and SM conferences.  But I am not actually the Unit Leader yet.

Last meeting, I was approached to sign an Eagle application as "Unit Leader".  I deferred the Scout until the SM returns.  I do not see a provision in the GTA that implies this is something the SM can even delegate.  It does say a BOR can't be denied due to a lack of signatures, but that implies the signatures are withheld intentionally and for some reason.  There is also some mention of a letter of explanation being attached if there is a discrepancy that needs clarification.

I don't want to frustrate this Scout with "red tape" but I also do not want to cause him issues with this very important application.  Anyone face a similar circumstance? 

Right now, I am holding off until the SM returns but if a letter of explanation would suffice I'd like to let this Scout get the application in.  They are not at risk of turning 18, but are understandably eager to make this important step.  That said - they did know about this absence and for exactly this reason.  There is a lesson here if nothing else.

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fred8033 Senior Member

fred8033

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It says "unit leader".  If the SM has delegated blue cards and other ranks stuff, talk on phone with the existing SM or CC.  If okay, sign and submit.  If you want to help the council registrar (or person who processes the paperwork), insert a note about that this is temporary or that a transition is happening.  That would be nice, but not necessarily required. 

Keep the paperwork moving ... for many reasons.

Also ... requirements are in the BS handbook.  Eagle app is not a requirement, but you can't achieve Eagle without it.

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InquisitiveScouter Senior Member

InquisitiveScouter

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1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

Eagle app is not a requirement,

It is...

2. "...List on your Eagle Scout Rank Application..."

Between 6 & 7...

"In preparation for your board of review, prepare and attach to your Eagle Scout Rank Application a statement of your ambitions and life purpose ..."

Although, I'd be the first to support articulating more clearly as a requirement.

 

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qwazse Senior Member

qwazse

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Our SM was unavailable, so Friday I conferenced and signed the Eagle App for a scout whose birthday was yesterday. (Yes, he registered to vote.)

I was in communication with the SM and other ASM's throughout.

Keep the BS out of the BSA.

Check in with your district/council advancement chair so that your current arrangement is well understood by all.

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curious_scouter Senior Member

curious_scouter

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CC is fine with it.  I'm sure the SM would be too, he just is not easily reachable although I do have an email out to him he should see eventually. 

I signed it today, but confirmed the Scout can easily re-print if needed.  So, I think we'll "keep the paperwork moving" as suggested (prudent) and I'll double up on the advice here by reaching out to district/council.  I don't know those persons yet, this is a good chance to make those intros regardless.

Thanks as usual for the sage advice

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fred8033 Senior Member

fred8033

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6 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

It is...

2. "...List on your Eagle Scout Rank Application..."

Between 6 & 7...

"In preparation for your board of review, prepare and attach to your Eagle Scout Rank Application a statement of your ambitions and life purpose ..."

Although, I'd be the first to support articulating more clearly as a requirement.

 

A well thought out answer.  I need to find when #2 had the words "on your Eagle Scout Rank Application" added.  It would be within the last 12 years.  The handbook I just grabbed does not say that.  As you point out, it is in BSA's eagle rank requirements statement though.  Hmmm...

This is about BSA documentation biting us again.  Someone added words without thinking about the circular requirement and how all the piece parts work together.  It's circular because most scouts don't complete the Eagle rank application until they think they are done completing the requirements, but they can't complete the application without filling out the Eagle rank application.  ...  Worse.  By putting it in requirement #2, now many scouts for years have not been in explicit compliance with completing the first six eagle rank requirements before they turn 18.  A large number of Eagle applications are completed after the scout turns 18. 

BSA has long had the position that the Eagle rank application is not required to be filled out before the scout turns 18.   That's always been clear.  Page 12 on Eagle rank app timing.   https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/advancement_news/2014_april-may.pdf?_ga=2.50163238.1600529180.1668055739-2140547674.1658366459&_gl=1*18mfjm7*_ga*MjE0MDU0NzY3NC4xNjU4MzY2NDU5*_ga_20G0JHESG4*MTY2ODA1NTczOS41LjEuMTY2ODA1NzA2Mi42MC4wLjA.

I will be sticking with my original assertion though.  Eagle rank application is not required, but you can't earn Eagle without it.   This is a BSA's documentation issue.

  • Nuanced argument ... A massive amount of Eagle scouts don't fill out the Eagle rank application before they turn 18.  So if Eagle rank app is a requirement, then those scouts have aged out and it's too late.
  • Inconsistent requirements / documentation
  • "Between 6 & 7" is a callout; not a requirement.  It's listed before #7 (EBOR) and it's definitely not part of #6 (SMC)  
  • Intention ... BSA rank application is more consistent with intention as EBOR is not in the control of the scout and often can't get it done before they turn 18.
    • Eagle rank requirements don't include the Eagle app, but you can't earn Eagle without it.  I say this as all Eagle rank requirements need to be completed before the scout turns 18.  

... now this is a fun discussion ... 

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mrjohns2 Senior Member

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8 hours ago, fred8033 said:

 

It says "unit leader". 

 

Unit Leader for a troop is the SM. It isn’t just any leader in the unit. 
 

If the SM is not available, though, I’d have the ASM or CC sign and put a note along the lines of “in lieu of the SM”. 

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InquisitiveScouter Senior Member

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1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

A well thought out answer.  I need to find when #2 had the words "on your Eagle Scout Rank Application" added.  It would be within the last 12 years.  The handbook I just grabbed does not say that.  As you point out, it is in BSA's eagle rank requirements statement though.  Hmmm...

This is about BSA documentation biting us again.  Someone added words without thinking about the circular requirement and how all the piece parts work together.  It's circular because most scouts don't complete the Eagle rank application until they think they are done completing the requirements, but they can't complete the application without filling out the Eagle rank application.  ...  Worse.  By putting it in requirement #2, now many scouts for years have not been in explicit compliance with completing the first six eagle rank requirements before they turn 18.  A large number of Eagle applications are completed after the scout turns 18. 

BSA has long had the position that the Eagle rank application is not required to be filled out before the scout turns 18.   That's always been clear.  Page 12 on Eagle rank app timing.   https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/advancement_news/2014_april-may.pdf?_ga=2.50163238.1600529180.1668055739-2140547674.1658366459&_gl=1*18mfjm7*_ga*MjE0MDU0NzY3NC4xNjU4MzY2NDU5*_ga_20G0JHESG4*MTY2ODA1NTczOS41LjEuMTY2ODA1NzA2Mi42MC4wLjA.

I will be sticking with my original assertion though.  Eagle rank application is not required, but you can't earn Eagle without it.   This is a BSA's documentation issue.

  • Nuanced argument ... A massive amount of Eagle scouts don't fill out the Eagle rank application before they turn 18.  So if Eagle rank app is a requirement, then those scouts have aged out and it's too late.
  • Inconsistent requirements / documentation
  • "Between 6 & 7" is a callout; not a requirement.  It's listed before #7 (EBOR) and it's definitely not part of #6 (SMC)  
  • Intention ... BSA rank application is more consistent with intention as EBOR is not in the control of the scout and often can't get it done before they turn 18.
    • Eagle rank requirements don't include the Eagle app, but you can't earn Eagle without it.  I say this as all Eagle rank requirements need to be completed before the scout turns 18.  

... now this is a fun discussion ... 

Application clearly has Requirement 7.  Look at the end of the form...

I think we both agree this is a muddled and poorly designed process, rife with opportunity for improvement.

But, my best advice to Eagle Candidates is "Read and complete the requirements!"  as this drives them to do the application to get references and Statement...

BTW, did you know Scoutbook will generate a pdf for your Scout, complete with all dates already filled in?  They have to tweak it to add references, but it is still a huge time and headache saver.

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fred8033 Senior Member

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6 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Application clearly has Requirement 7.  Look at the end of the form...

LOL ... You're right.  I'm so used to stopping at the lines above the final signatures.  I did not see the word was moved below.  

I sit corrected.  :)  ... I still stay with my original assertion.  Eagle rank application is not required, but you can't earn Eagle without it.

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MikeS72 Senior Member

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9 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

Unit Leader for a troop is the SM. It isn’t just any leader in the unit. 
 

If the SM is not available, though, I’d have the ASM or CC sign and put a note along the lines of “in lieu of the SM”. 

Had to do this several years ago when our SM was out of state for more than a month.

Confirmed it with council prior to signing.

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Jameson76 Senior Member

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Don't overthink this, remember the focus should be on the Scout and delivering the program.

SM or CC is not available, quick text or e-mail should be able to secure their approval, leader on site signs, and move on.  If they (CC or SM) have concerns those should have been voiced long before the Eagle application is in play.

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curious_scouter Senior Member

curious_scouter

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4 hours ago, Armymutt said:

Slightly off topic, but if you are going to be the SM in less than 2 months and the SM is going to be gone for all of the meetings between then and now, why not do an immediate leadership change?  There's 7 weeks between now and the end of the year.  

Fair question.  I submitted my ASM application in February, my council still has not processed it.  We've been skating by because I'm still considered a "Den Leader" which does make me a registered leader over the age of 21.  We've taken it up with council and the DE and three weeks ago the response I got (in person) from my DE was that council is aware of my situation bu they are doing "new paperwork first" so my "transfer" still has not been prioritized.  We thought we had a better chance of the paperwork getting priority if it was done with recharter.

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qwazse Senior Member

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12 minutes ago, curious_scouter said:

Fair question.  I submitted my ASM application in February, my council still has not processed it.  We've been skating by because I'm still considered a "Den Leader" which does make me a registered leader over the age of 21.  We've taken it up with council and the DE and three weeks ago the response I got (in person) from my DE was that council is aware of my situation bu they are doing "new paperwork first" so my "transfer" still has not been prioritized.  We thought we had a better chance of the paperwork getting priority if it was done with recharter.

If the registrar make this a "hang-up", it's the fault of adults. The scout's application would not be rejected. An appeal to National would come down in favor of the scout.

Again, this is where getting to know your advancement chair comes in handy.

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