The Patrol Method - Patrols and Outings

[curious_scouter]

After drifting away from it, our PLC has set "Return to Patrol Method" as a goal for this year.  We bought more stoves and refreshed the gear, building patrol boxes that have the same contents so every Patrol can operate distinctly and without disadvantage from another.  It's a great start.  And it's been working great, but ... on outings I think us adults have sidestepped a part of the Patrol Method that I think maybe the Scouts "just get".

Here's the crux:  A patrol "should be" 6-8 Scouts.  We went with 10, to improve the odds that 4-8 would attend outings.  For meetings, this has been perfect.  Outings, it's a mixed bag.

We (adults) have fallen into the practice of looking at who signed up... and then forming "operating patrols" from them.  We have 5 patrols, last outing we had turnout like this:  6/5/2/2/1

So we smooshed them into two "operating patrols".  It worked fine and they managed well, but two interesting things happened that kind of opened my eyes and has lead me to the philosophy that "A Patrol is a Patrol".

Thing One:  A scout in one of the 2 person patrols rolled into camp, checked in with the SPL, unloaded their gear - including a cooler.  I was nearby and he was not grubmaster for either of the "patrols" so I approached, "Hey bud, why the cooler?"  He was at the last meeting where we split up into these two "operating patrols" and did menus, duty rosters, etc.  But... his response kind of blew my mind in a good way.  He said:  "Well, we're doing Patrol method right?  It's just me and Johnny from my Patrol.  So we talked and since it's just us two we grabbed food from the pantry at our house.  I made sandwiches, he's bringing the soup."  Huh. 

Thing Two:  "Operating Patrol 1" was essentially the 6 person patrol with the 1 loner and "Operating Patrol 2" was the 5/2/2 setup.  Friday night the Scouts set up their area in the dark, so it wasn't until Saturday after breakfast that I got to walk the camp in daylight.  What I saw was another big moment.  They had split into two Patrol campsites, but within those campsites - they were 100% sub-grouped according to their actual Patrols.  Huh.

I thought a lot about those two moments since this weekend.  I'm a reader and a studier, so I decided to go read up on how to handle this kind of the per the Patrol Method.  I am finding there's not a lot out there about "What is the Patrol Method".  Even the handbook has only 3 short mentions.  At first I was frustrated by that, but now I'm thinking:  It's because it really is that simple.  Probably the best thing I found was a quote from B-P:

“My ideal camp is where everyone is cheery and busy, where the patrols are kept intact under all circumstances, and where every patrol leader and Scout takes a genuine pride in his camp and his gadgets.” 

—Lord Baden-Powell, Scouting's founder

Only 2 boys from a Patrol going?  That's fine.  Let them sort it out.  Let them do it together like story #1 - which is fine.  Or... let them make the decision to seek another Patrol to partner with for the outing.  But... let the Scouts sort it out themselves the "right way" - go to the SPL, get them to help you partner up with another Patrol or just go Patrol-Patrol directly.  Either way... I am fully confident if we set expectations this is how we operate - the Scouts will manage it.

I went around to our other leaders last night and discussed this and the fact I planned to put a stop to the "operating patrol" concept for a trial run.  By and large the only concern seemed to be "what if only 1 boy from a Patrol  shows up - they need to be with someone for buddy system" and "it'll be too expensive / impractical for a 1/2/3 Scout patrol to do much at an outing food-wise" 

To the first point - I do give some weight.  But also feel the "solution" to that is in those cases the 1 person patrol just has to be near another.  Close enough at least that they can watch for each other and yes, we follow the buddy system regardless of Patrol size so that person is almost definitely going to need to partner up with another Patrol during the day or plan on being in camp a lot.  But... the push from other leaders is to enforce that with a "no single scout patrols on outings" policy.  I'm on the fence.  I think we need to give the Scouts some room to see what they will do most of the time in that situation before we make assumptions and build rules we don't need. 

To the second point - those two scouts that just sorted out their menu, their plan, and agreed to raid the home pantry tells me... a patrol of two can be super resourceful and thrifty and I have zero concern on that point.  In fact, last night I had a SM conference with the "cooler Scout" and said, "You know that we have stoves and gear for every patrol.  You guys planned sandwiches, which is okay, but you would have had access to a full kitchen setup on the trailer if you wanted."  It's all new, so no - he didn't know that, and he said that had they known the two of them definitely would have cooked meals.  So... even the prospect of "just two" would not have held them back from having eggs and more interesting food.  And I get this because the adults have agreed to operate as a patrol and set an example and on our very first outing in this model - it was just two of us.  He and I made our plan, we had great food, we used the same stove and patrol box as the Scouts, same dining fly, heck we even had steak for dinner and we did it for $12 a person - just a nudge over our $10 per person goal and mainly because... we really wanted steak.  So... I am currently convinced that small patrols on outings are a-okay if that's how that Patrol wants to operate on that outing.  BUT - if they do not want to operate that way, it is up to them to partner with another Patrol.  Even if you smoosh them together - they will naturally gravitate to their "small patrol" groups anyway.  So let's not fight it, this truly is the natural instinct of our youth.

I'm going to Kaibosh this idea of "operating patrols" for the next few outings at least and see how it pans out.  But... I thought this is a good place to sanity check this and to see if/how this has worked for others and if there's anything I should be aware of which I haven't encountered yet. 

[Eagledad]

I figure a Scoutmasters needs at least 3 years to start to understand the general workings of Patrol Method. And a lifetime to really know how those workings push young adults to grow in character. Seems you reached that 3 year mark.

We also built our patrol around 10 scouts with the idea that at least half would show at campouts. But, we often had 2 man patrols and even 1 man patrols once in a while. We found the scouts like 1 and 2 man patrols because the individualism is adventure and they look forward to the challenges. And, we found the other patrols will look after them. Our 1 man and 2 man patrols tended to get standing ovation at the end of the campouts.

The next part is just information, but not suggestions. We also build and purchased the good patrol equipment and patrol boxes. About three years after starting the troop, I arranged meeting of ideas with the PLC and that is where I learned the scouts hated the patrol boxes. They were big and heavy and tended to always get real messy. They also weren't all that excited with big stoves or lanterns. It was a lot of stuff they had to load, unload, and maintain. Two weeks later we created and experiment where 3 of our 6 patrols were changing to backpacking patrols. No patrol boxes, no lanterns or big Coleman stoves. We purchased two burner backpacking stoves and streamlined the rest of the gear to be backpackable. We did do High Adventure backpacking trips, so we knew our way around the gear. The idea was let these 3 patrols experiment with the minimalist gear for 6 months and then evaluate what to do with the other 3 patrols. Well, as you might guess, the experiment didn't go as expected. The 3 other patrols demanded they become backpacking patrols after two months. And that was how we became a back packing troop.

Our troop also used 4 man tents because they were the most economical when we started the troop. But, because we were a backpacking troop, the scouts started bringing their own backpacking tents that they used on backpacking trips. They just like one or two man tents more. And, the older scouts actually wanted the privacy to sleep.  

We adults got into the program wanting to develop the best troop with the best scouts. Of course. But, I saw that adults dream of scouting is uniformity. Looks. If we adults will allow them, the scouts will show us what true patrol method really is. And, it's not always pretty. But, true Patrol Method becomes an addiction where the scouts are free to develop their dream of an ideal scout.

If the adults could stand to just step back and let the patrol method machine work under it's own inertia, the adults will find that the scouts will grow so fast that the adults struggle to get out of the way. Patrol method should be real life at a boys size. Every time the adults try to guide the scouts toward their vision of ideal scouts, the program will bog down trying to find the next step. Scouts will naturally let adults takeover, so the adults have to purposely "Get Out Of The Way". Once everyone understands their place, the adults will be surprised to see the troop become a lean, mean, scouting machine. And, it will grow.

All the adults really need to do is insure that the scouts are using the 8 methods of scouting. They can measure their program by watching how well the scouts are working the three Aims. OK, I understand the National added the 4th Aim, leadership. Ignore leadership as an Aim and let the scouts deal with it in their methods. Adults want all scouts to be leaders, but all scouts don't want to be leaders. They want to be great scouts. I have lots of stories of great scouts who stepped up and showed great leadership when leadership was required in the moment.

I'm over stepping. Sorry. Sounds like you have a great program. Enjoy.

Barry

[MattR]

I stopped the mix and mash approach and did exactly as you suggest, @curious_scouter. The small patrols enjoyed it because it's a lot easier to cook and clean for 2 or 3 than 8. I said it's their choice. Nobody ever wanted to camp as a single person patrol, 2 worked if they were good friends, 3 or 4 was always a good experience.

I should add it was more of a struggle to get the adults to agree with this. Now that I'm no longer SM, some old adult-think has crept back in. Mix and match patrols, "advancement" meetings. In some other thread someone brought up the best check on a plan: will it be fun? Can it be fun? If not, how do we change it? I was more interested in coaching fun than whatever it is that most adults fixate on. And I have no idea why that was such a struggle.

[DuctTape]

Scout-led. 'nuff said.

[Sentinel947]

I think you're on the right track and your understanding of the patrol method is strong. BP wanted to work with a teenagers natural desire to create tight knit little groups of friends. 

I'll add one thought that reinforces yours: Let your scouts figure it out. Especially the small number of scouts in a patrol situation. What do they want to do, what are pros and cons of their decision? I spent alot of my time as an ASM and as an NYLT Course Director asking "What do you want to do?" to my Scouts. 

 

[qwazse]

A scouter can be taught!

14 hours ago, curious_scouter said:

... I'm going to Kaibosh this idea of "operating patrols" for the next few outings at least and see how it pans out.  But... I thought this is a good place to sanity check this and to see if/how this has worked for others and if there's anything I should be aware of which I haven't encountered yet. 

@curious_scouter, Regarding that sanity check, let me hand down what my advisor told me when I was an Advisor dealing with all manner of cross-talk regarding how to do my job, and I asked, "Am I right, or am I crazy."

He said, "Oh, you may very well be crazy, but you are certainly right!"

If I were you, I'd get the "cooler boys" a patrol of two totem for their flag. What's going to happen if that pair are the only boys from their patrol who show up on activities ready to scout at full tilt and give other patrols a run for their money? Other scouts as nutty as them will want to be in their patrol.

Bottom line, don't break up patrols for your convenience. Let the scouts tell you and the SPL if they want to adjust their members. It can be because of attendance issues like the one that concerns you, or it could be because a couple of scouts in a patrol are like oil and water, or because of youth protection requirements. Ask the SPL to evaluate if it's a problem, invite him and the PLC to resolve it. They may need options, or they may already have their minds made up on what would be best. They just need the freedom to think that through.

[ramanous]

Sorry to reopen a old post, but I'm curious how your "Return to Patrol Method" is going? What lessons have your learned?

I have found it VERY difficult to convince the scouters in our troop about the importance of the patrol method. For the scouter parents, some have recognized that we're not developing leadership within the troop but still don't get why mixing up patrols every outing is a bad idea.  And the veteran scouters, well I've been an actively involved scouter for several years now and still don't understand their "methods."

[curious_scouter]

It's going great.  Patrols are all happy with their members.  Sometimes relationships change or scouts mature and their Patrol does not "fit" any more so they drift around a little, but not much.  And we allow them.  The only exception is new scout patrol where you have to have 1 year in or reach First Class before you can elect to move out, but the last two years the crossovers who started in the new scout patrol have chosen to stay in that patrol when they were given the choice and it is building up nicely into a mix of ages and skillets, so it's not JUST all the youngest. 

Campouts work well, even if the Patrol is small.  We do allow Patrols to "team up" with another Patrol if they want but never "split up" - they all team up or they all don't.  The Patrols get to exhibit their personalities.  One Patrol brings this 14 person tent, they are all within YPT age to share so they just pile in.  Another patrol hates setting up a full kitchen, so they find ways to keep setup to a minimum.  If you force them all together, you take away those choices and that personality.

I love it.

I think my take away is this is how it's supposed to be.  It's how youth's minds work.  If you have a smaller or younger Patrol, you don't force them on the older scouts or take away their leadership and decisions by pressing the youngers in with olders.  You create leadership opportunities for the older scouts to help that younger/smaller patrol - like working on your Troop Guides, the SPL, and instructor positions.  And if needed, you get an adult leader to work with the patrol leaders who are struggling.  But you let them work it out and succeed. 

The worst thing I think you can do to youth is make them do scouts with people they really don't want to.  And make them do it YOUR way.  Or assume there is "one way" every Patrol has to behave.  They will be miserable, they will quit.  But if they love their patrol, they love coming to meetings, outings.  Things like cooking and cleaning aren't a chore it's an activity. 

[ramanous]

That's great to hear and I appreciate your observations! Can my family join your troop😉?

Do you have any advice regarding how to explain the patrol method and its benefits to both adults and scouts?

I've actually found a reasonably close troop that does implement the patrol method. I hate the thought of transferring my boy to a new troop but we're basically a SM lead troop as the SPLs struggle to control the scouts. Unfortunately, I've come to the conclusion that the SM is fine with this (politically he is not in any danger of being replaced) so I really don't think it matters what I say at this point. But, I'd appreciate your thoughts anyway.

Edited March 23 by ramanous

[curious_scouter]

I honestly don't know how to explain it to an adult any more than I can explain faith to someone without it.  I feel like it's one of those things like Peter Pan once you hit a certain age "practicality" takes the driver seat.  But these are youth and they need and crave fun and adventure.  If you can't understand that's better delivered with a "band of brothers" than force marched into "groups that make sense" it will be hard to convince you.

In my unit, I had to force it.  I had the "luxury" of being the new Scoutmaster and therefore holding the authority to insist we at least try it this way for some period.  I overheard plenty of snide comments from the adults not in favor of letting the Patrol method take root.  I think they have come around.  But it was a lot of "why bother telling him X - he'll do whatever he wants anyway"  They continually even to now try to slip in their own ways.  Particularly if I'm not around.  The one and only outing I missed the menu planning meeting for they slid in Troop-wide meals.  It was miserable.  I think the scouts learned a lesson and I have not seen it since - even in my absence.

I guess the only thing I can say is if you try it, and observe it, you will realize this is how it should be.  And when in doubt, go back to the source.  B.P. said:

Quote

“The patrol system is not one method in which Scouting for boys can be carried on. It is the only method.”

(emphasis mine)

Edited March 23 by curious_scouter

[ramanous]

So I think one suggestion you're making is to let the patrols self-organize naturally as much as possible?

We actually have the opposite problem than you, which is our SM refuses to use the patrol method in favor of the SPL running the troop directly (the PLs have no responsibility.) He's been a scouter for a long time, including woodbadge, so its confounding to me (I asked him privately to explain it; that was big mistake.) I'm speculating the Key3 want the troop to be an Eagle Scout factory so they see PL, SPL, etc as just requirements for rank advancement.

[InquisitiveScouter]

4 hours ago, ramanous said:

So I think one suggestion you're making is to let the patrols self-organize naturally as much as possible?

We actually have the opposite problem than you, which is our SM refuses to use the patrol method in favor of the SPL running the troop directly (the PLs have no responsibility.) He's been a scouter for a long time, including woodbadge, so its confounding to me (I asked him privately to explain it; that was big mistake.) I'm speculating the Key3 want the troop to be an Eagle Scout factory so they see PL, SPL, etc as just requirements for rank advancement.

Sounds like you have a continuation of the WEBELOS program.

Leave immediately.

DM me with your state and city... if you are near, come visit to see what Patrol Method and Scout-led looks like.

Fair warning: it is messy, and adults can do it much better... but then it would not be Scouting; it would be WEBELOS again.

 

[swilliams]

6 hours ago, ramanous said:

So I think one suggestion you're making is to let the patrols self-organize naturally as much as possible?

We actually have the opposite problem than you, which is our SM refuses to use the patrol method in favor of the SPL running the troop directly (the PLs have no responsibility.) He's been a scouter for a long time, including woodbadge, so its confounding to me (I asked him privately to explain it; that was big mistake.) I'm speculating the Key3 want the troop to be an Eagle Scout factory so they see PL, SPL, etc as just requirements for rank advancement.

Take baby steps wherever you can.  I'm not Scoutmaster, nor even an Assistant Scoutmaster.  Our SM, like yours, expects the SPL to lead the entire Troop, and the scout who was doing so just quit last Tuesday.  It's too much to expect one scout to rein in 30-35 younger ones.  Very, very few of our older scouts will come to the weekly meetings anymore because it's "babysitting" (with all scouts in one big, unruly group).

So here's an example of a baby step.  I create and run an orienteering event every year.  I didn't even ask permission, I just did it and invited whomever wanted to come.  It's become one of the scouts favorite outings, and we're heading out tomorrow for this year's course.  Because of the older scouts' lack of participation, I only have two coming tomorrow, but I have 18 younger scouts who will attend.  A full half of them are the cross-over scouts from merely one week ago. 

I've reached out to a handful of scouts who RSVP'd 'yes' and asked them to be leaders, heading out with groups of 3-4 scouts.  A couple that I reached out to are 12-13, and one is still only Tenderfoot, but I'm hoping they'll gain something from being asked to lead: 1) a sense of pride that I think they can do the job, 2) confidence from having done the job, and 3) a greater sense of what the older scouts have been putting up with.  🤣

I'm also leading a backpacking trip on the AT, for the older scouts.  This I did run by the SM, and got him to agree that due to the number of miles we're hiking (roughly 15 from Friday evening to Sunday morning) it would be a bit much for the newer scouts.  His view was that as long as he didn't have to do any of the planning or go on the trip, he was fine if I did.  With a second registered adult, of course. 

[ramanous]

I'm an Eagle from a troop that did practice the patrol method, so I get it but the other parents don't really understand. The involved parents see the problem, but so far I haven't been able to find a succinct, convincing way to explain why the patrol method is the solution; coupled with the fact that the SM & CC have the podium.

The response from other parents is usually something like, "OK, but what if we did this other thing"

I've pointed them to the aims & method; quoted Baden-Powell; tried to explain how a SPL learns to lead by being a PL. One thing I haven't gotten across is that the PL learns from practicing, especially at the outings. Maybe I need a patrol method brief... here what it is, and why it works (and other "methods" don't.)

However, I don't think it matters even if the concerned parents demanded change. SM has dug his claws in & the CC supports him. Most of the parents aren't engaged, so I expect don't care & would probably get upset at the rabble-rousers. The primary reason we're in this troop is that my son's friends are in it. That's making in tough to leave, but I think we've got to go.

"Patrols make a Troop" is a great line (in your other post).

 

Edited March 23 by ramanous

[qwazse]

@ramanous much of a troop’s culture is set by the SM. If he doesn’t buy in, the best you can do is assist his vision. With little nudges based on what you did for fun as a scout.

Your personal goal should be to build your relationship with your son, his friends, and their parents. Some of this stuff regarding ideal methods will have to be put on the back burner.