Scout Executive Salary

[SiouxRanger]

47 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

it just wasn’t talked about?

Correct.

If you were a CPA or an Attorney on the Board, not so motivated to risk your career or social position by assaulting the BSA monolith by referring to the tax return, you said nothing.

AND, again, what would you care?  The "anointed" SE with his (and females too, however) high salary had to raise the funds to pay it.  And if he failed, "no skin off your nose."

But here is the "RUB."

And it is significant.

Salaries get paid FIRST. (And of those salaries, I suspect that the SE's salary gets primacy-his/her salary gets paid first, in full, before any other in the event of a shortfall. I may be wrong, and so be it, but if others know more, please post.

The upshot of all of this is that Program is funded by the dregs.

"After the sharks have fed, PROGAM gets the dregs."

Now, that is a problem for me.

BSA is touted to be "Volunteer Driven," yet at the end of the day, that program is only accorded the dregs after the professionals have saited themselves on the huge profits of the program.

And, yet, Detractors say, "Be Away, you naysayer SiouxRanger be, dare you say BSA has cut corners…"

Well, my council purchases event patches at $.79 apiece, at whatever quantity. 

So, 100 patches cost $79.

Council budget, $3 million…

And still, not enough patches were ordered.

 

[1980Scouter]

7 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

You can find the 990 form for your council.  For my council latest one I could locate was 2019

Revenue - $14.3 M.  These top 6 staff (less than 10% of the total staff) account for $1.594MM in costs or 11% of the budget.  SE pay is not in fact a misprint

• SE / CEO
  • Reportable compensation - $459K
  • Other compensation - $159K
  • Total - $618K
• Deputy SE
  • Reportable compensation - $189K
  • Other compensation - $70K
  • Total - $259K
• Director of Development
  • Reportable compensation - $155K
  • Other compensation - $38K
  • Total - $193K
• Director of Field Service
  • Reportable compensation - $151K
  • Other compensation - $33K
  • Total - $184K
• Director of Field Service (another one)
  • Reportable compensation - $146K
  • Other compensation - $30K
  • Total - $176K
• Director of Accounting
  • Reportable compensation - $101K
  • Other compensation - $63K
  • Total - $164K

Wow. That is crazy salaries for a non-profit.  I agree that maybe 75k might be low in some markets. I was thinking of my area.

[Jameson76]

1 hour ago, 1980Scouter said:

Wow. That is crazy salaries for a non-profit.  I agree that maybe 75k might be low in some markets. I was thinking of my area.

Well - 

That explains the focus on FOS, popcorn, and camp cards.  Guess all of our fair share is needed to support their lifestyles

[qwazse]

14 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

... But here is the "RUB."

And it is significant.

Salaries get paid FIRST. (And of those salaries, I suspect that the SE's salary gets primacy-his/her salary gets paid first, in full, before any other in the event of a shortfall. I may be wrong, and so be it, but if others know more, please post.

The upshot of all of this is that Program is funded by the dregs. ...

So ... here's how to rub the other way. Invite big donors to your program. That makes the SE pay very close attention to you. If a donor is posting on his/her media page about the attendance of a scouting event that you programmed, I assure you that that program will get funding.

For any of you who are feeling an "ick" factor because you're "in it for the boys", please understand that the entire USA movement is founded by businessmen who understood cash flow far better than they understood youth development. Design a program that a businessman sees as a worthy investment, and you'll find more support for it than you may need or even want. Then you let your pro's do what they do best -- being a liaison who primes the pump for funding program and and solves many of your paperwork/legal challenges, justifying their salaries in the process.

[InquisitiveScouter]

To my Brother Scouters and Guides:

Cecil Rhodes said at the end of his life (and I, in my turn, feel the truth of it), "So much to do and so little time to do it." No one can hope to see the consummation, as well as the start, of a big venture within the short span of one life-time.

I have had an extraordinary experience in seeing the development of Scouting from its beginning up to its present stage. But there is a vast job before it. The Movement is only now getting into its stride. (When I speak of Scouting I include in it Guiding also.) The one part which I can claim as mine towards promoting the Movement is that I have been lucky enough to find you men and women to form a group of the right stamp who can be relied upon to carry it on to its goal. You will do well to keep your eyes open, in your turn, for worthy successors to who you can, with confidence, hand on the torch. Don't let it become a salaried organization: keep it a voluntary movement of patriotic service.

The Movement has already, in the comparatively short period of its existence, established itself onto a wide and so strong a footing as to show most encouraging promise of what may be possible to it in the coming years. Its aim is to produce healthy, happy, helpful citizens, of both sexes, to eradicate the prevailing narrow self-interest; personal, political, sectarian and national, and to substitute for it a broader spirit of self-sacrifice and service in the cause of humanity; and thus to develop mutual goodwill and cooperation not only within our own country but abroad, between all countries. Experience shows that this consummation is no idle or fantastic dream, but is a practicable possibility - if we work for it; and it means, when attained, peace, prosperity and happiness for all. The "encouraging promise" lies in the fact that the hundreds of thousands of boys and girls who are learning our ideals today will be the fathers and mothers of millions in the near future, in whom they will in turn inculcate the same ideals - provided that these are really and unmistakably impressed upon them by the leaders of today.

Therefore you, who are Scouters and Guiders, are not only doing a great work for your neighbor's children, but are also helping in practical fashion to bring to pass God's Kingdom of peace and goodwill upon earth. So, from my heart, I wish you God-speed in your effort.

Baden-Powell

[gpurlee]

I have worked in not-for-profit management my entire career and know the local market for human service CEO's very well (a metropolitan area of 1.5 million). A couple of comments related to Scouting executive salaries, at least in our region.

The Scouting CEO position probably ranks in the top 10% of local not-for-profit social service CEO positions. The Scout executive has been paid much higher especially in relation to the overall budget of the organization.  A few years ago, the local newspaper did an investigative report and found that the salary at the time was significantly higher than that for other human service organizations such as the YMCA, Volunteers of America, Goodwill, Easter Seals, Girl Scouts, etc. 

Another thing that stood out was the Boy Scouts was one of the very few human service organizations that required that the local CEO (Scout Executive) be selected from a national pool of pre-approved candidates (professional Scouters) rather than the best possible candidate. This effectively eliminated many very talented candidates who might know the community better, have great skills in team-building, fund-raising or other needed qualities. The Boy Scouts retain a model of top leadership selection that almost all other national human service organizations have turned away from years ago. 

 

Edited November 9, 2022 by gpurlee

[Armymutt]

On 11/8/2022 at 11:04 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

To my Brother Scouters and Guides:

Cecil Rhodes said at the end of his life (and I, in my turn, feel the truth of it), "So much to do and so little time to do it." No one can hope to see the consummation, as well as the start, of a big venture within the short span of one life-time.

I have had an extraordinary experience in seeing the development of Scouting from its beginning up to its present stage. But there is a vast job before it. The Movement is only now getting into its stride. (When I speak of Scouting I include in it Guiding also.) The one part which I can claim as mine towards promoting the Movement is that I have been lucky enough to find you men and women to form a group of the right stamp who can be relied upon to carry it on to its goal. You will do well to keep your eyes open, in your turn, for worthy successors to who you can, with confidence, hand on the torch. Don't let it become a salaried organization: keep it a voluntary movement of patriotic service.

The Movement has already, in the comparatively short period of its existence, established itself onto a wide and so strong a footing as to show most encouraging promise of what may be possible to it in the coming years. Its aim is to produce healthy, happy, helpful citizens, of both sexes, to eradicate the prevailing narrow self-interest; personal, political, sectarian and national, and to substitute for it a broader spirit of self-sacrifice and service in the cause of humanity; and thus to develop mutual goodwill and cooperation not only within our own country but abroad, between all countries. Experience shows that this consummation is no idle or fantastic dream, but is a practicable possibility - if we work for it; and it means, when attained, peace, prosperity and happiness for all. The "encouraging promise" lies in the fact that the hundreds of thousands of boys and girls who are learning our ideals today will be the fathers and mothers of millions in the near future, in whom they will in turn inculcate the same ideals - provided that these are really and unmistakably impressed upon them by the leaders of today.

Therefore you, who are Scouters and Guiders, are not only doing a great work for your neighbor's children, but are also helping in practical fashion to bring to pass God's Kingdom of peace and goodwill upon earth. So, from my heart, I wish you God-speed in your effort.

Baden-Powell

While definitely a worthy goal, it was also really short-sited.  BP was already wealthy.  Look at how difficult it is to get someone to volunteer to be a den leader.  Do you think anyone has the volunteer time available to do the job needed at the SE level?  My issue with SE pay is when the program and facilities don't match it.  For example, I've seen one council where the SE makes about $200k.  The council camp reservation is top notch.  It is well suited for Cub Scouts and older programs.  Half the reservation has sites that you can drive up to, unload gear, and camp in comfort.  There are buildings with 4 flush toilets and four showers with sinks on both ends.  Each site has two picnic shelters with tables maintained by the OA with electricity.  There is another part of the reservation that is far more spartan with very little in the way of facilities.  

Another council I visited has an SE making a bit over $400k.  The reservation is embarrassing.  The dedicated Cub Scout area has several crowded camp sites with one filthy shack that has a couple of toilets and a sink with barely any water flow.  There is no ability to drive up to the camp sites, so parents have to lug all the giant tents and cooking gear 150 yards down a hill to get to where they are going.  The sites are on top of each other light an urban neighborhood.  There is one nice building with a few showers and 4 toilets for the whole camp.  

I don't think that the SE is earning their pay in that council.  

Edited November 10, 2022 by Armymutt

[Scouterlockport]

On 11/9/2022 at 8:18 AM, gpurlee said:

I have worked in not-for-profit management my entire career and know the local market for human service CEO's very well (a metropolitan area of 1.5 million). A couple of comments related to Scouting executive salaries, at least in our region.

The Scouting CEO position probably ranks in the top 10% of local not-for-profit social service CEO positions. The Scout executive has been paid much higher especially in relation to the overall budget of the organization.  A few years ago, the local newspaper did an investigative report and found that the salary at the time was significantly higher than that for other human service organizations such as the YMCA, Volunteers of America, Goodwill, Easter Seals, Girl Scouts, etc. 

Another thing that stood out was the Boy Scouts was one of the very few human service organizations that required that the local CEO (Scout Executive) be selected from a national pool of pre-approved candidates (professional Scouters) rather than the best possible candidate. This effectively eliminated many very talented candidates who might know the community better, have great skills in team-building, fund-raising or other needed qualities. The Boy Scouts retain a model of top leadership selection that almost all other national human service organizations have turned away from years ago. 

 

I think something us in the working class or middle class lose is that even if the SE is making 200k-400k a year he is still the poorest man in the executive board meeting. While too much of the pay is still based on when we had 3x the scouts. The scouts executives are not overpay when you think about how big of regional territory they really are in charge of.

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, Armymutt said:

Do you think anyone has the volunteer time available to do the job needed at the SE level?

LOL, wasn't implying they should be a volunteer.

My premise (as I think BP's was, too) is that the whole construct of commercializing the operation is what "poisons the well."

What is the primary reason for councils to exist??  You should really explore that question. 

I propose the radical idea of doing away with that structure entirely. 

[yknot]

29 minutes ago, Scouterlockport said:

I think something us in the working class or middle class lose is that even if the SE is making 200k-400k a year he is still the poorest man in the executive board meeting. While too much of the pay is still based on when we had 3x the scouts. The scouts executives are not overpay when you think about how big of regional territory they really are in charge of.

I've been in positions where I was technically in charge of the whole US region. My salary wasn't high six figures. It has nothing to do with size of territory and everything to do with performance and results. Competent people can certainly get stuck in bad situations particularly in a moribund organization like this one, but trying to blanket defend large salaries by claiming they are less than for profit means that every other nonprofit out there should also be mismanaged and failing -- and they are not. I would also argue that a lot of these people would be unemployable at even their current salaries in the private sector. Scout management, from what've experienced at the council and national levels, is ten years behind comparable outside corporate environments. They certainly don't speak the same language. So I am skeptical on multiple levels of the "we're getting a bargain so we should be grateful and complacent" line of thinking. 

 

[Scouterlockport]

5 minutes ago, yknot said:

I've been in positions where I was technically in charge of the whole US region. My salary wasn't high six figures. It has nothing to do with size of territory and everything to do with performance and results. Competent people can certainly get stuck in bad situations particularly in a moribund organization like this one, but trying to blanket defend large salaries by claiming they are less than for profit means that every other nonprofit out there should also be mismanaged and failing -- and they are not. I would also argue that a lot of these people would be unemployable at even their current salaries in the private sector. Scout management, from what've experienced at the council and national levels, is ten years behind comparable outside corporate environments. They certainly don't speak the same language. So I am skeptical on multiple levels of the "we're getting a bargain so we should be grateful and 

But SE are seen as CEOs of the councils not as what they actually are which is regional manager. That is part of the pay difference. 

I think you are being kind to say scouting corporate structure is only ten year behind. Like you said earlier, evening picking who then next scout executive is from the 1940s. There is no outside thought being allowed into the organization. The best pro leave well before becoming close to scout executive.

[Jameson76]

2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

What is the primary reason for councils to exist??  You should really explore that question. 

Well, do you raise money to have a Scouting program (volunteer thinking) OR do you have Scouting to be able to raise money (professional thinking).  When well over half you expenses are salaries and compensation and not focused on program, it's an issue.  My council's largest group is dedicated to raise money, so they can have more staff to, well, raise money

1 hour ago, yknot said:

 Scout management, from what've experienced at the council and national levels, is ten years behind comparable outside corporate environments.

You are being kind, it's like any management thinking is from the 30's and 40's of layered management (many layers) and nobody really makes a decision, they just sort of meet about it.  My council has a lot of staff and a well paid SE (sorry CEO).  He has 1 direct report.  Then there is the ASE who have 3 or 4 Sr Field Directors, then the SrFD have FD, then they have Sr DE's, then they have DE's.  A lowly DE has 5 to 6 levels of management to the CEO, and they do not have that many staff.  My company has 10,000 US staff.  Warehouse guy has less levels than that to our US CEO

1 hour ago, yknot said:

I would also argue that a lot of these people would be unemployable at even their current salaries in the private sector. 

Many have only worked in the BSA, that is the entire Senior Management team.  You lock step and say yes sir (or maam) to the higher ups and toe the line

 

[qwazse]

On 11/9/2022 at 9:18 AM, gpurlee said:

... The Scouting CEO position probably ranks in the top 10% of local not-for-profit social service CEO positions. The Scout executive has been paid much higher especially in relation to the overall budget of the organization. ...

What is the "overall budget of the organization" when the organization offloads stewardship of it's resources (meeting space, equipment, and a boatload of management onto COs and volunteers? If council-owned troops become increasingly popular, there will be budgets will increase and the SE's pay as a percentage of that budget will decrease, even if actually salary remains constant.

SE's get compensated well when a lot of other people do work for the council for little or nothing.

[SiouxRanger]

On 11/7/2022 at 10:17 PM, Jameson76 said:

SE pay is not in fact a misprint

Must be a misprint.  I looked carefully…where is the factor"

"times 10 to the 12th?"

[SiouxRanger]

On 11/9/2022 at 8:18 AM, gpurlee said:

Another thing that stood out was the Boy Scouts was one of the very few human service organizations that required that the local CEO (Scout Executive) be selected from a national pool of pre-approved candidates (professional Scouters) rather than the best possible candidate.

Any why would that be?

It is the CRUX of the problem.

EVERY SE is beholden to National for their job, first off, and for hoped-for promotions.  Their current huge salaries are a reward for prior loyalty, and the prospect of promotions for future loyalty to National.

In the Bankruptcy, National made the case that the Councils were "independent" of National, but I don't believe that.

YET, those "independent"  Councils, 100% of them, fell in line, trashed their camps and finances to bail out National. And paid what National decreed. (And I'd note, that those Councils are allegedly governed by Executive Committees and Executive Boards, theoretically voting on such drastic measures.  Yet not one rogue Council arose.  When was the last time anyone saw unanimity anywhere? Especially, in an environment of 200+ allegedly independent Councils each governed by a board of 30 to 60 folks? 

Our SE is not from our area.  Neither were the last 6 before the current SE. None of them knew anything of the volunteers, camps, businesses, community leaders, yet were expected to interface effectively with them.  It does not work.

Of the last 24 years here, we have had about 7 years of effective SE leadership.  The rest was ruinous.