Scout non-responsive to Life BoR questions; fails BoR; passes new BoR outside his unit

[fred8033]

9 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

... This is the very reason there are Eagle Scouts who can't light a lantern, or heaven forbid they had to change a mantle.  ...

Fully disagree.  EBORs do not exist to change advancement expectations at the end after years of failure by troops and many, many adults.  I agree that every Eagle scout should be able to light a lantern and do basic 1st class scouting skills.  I disagree that it's okay to try to enforce it right at the end.  ... 

EBORs are more of a friendly conversation similar to the SMC, but done by other adults.  

Now ... if you want to assert all BORs should be youth or non-troop.  We can talk.  If you want to say the advancement program, shoudl be drastically different, fine.  I just disagree that the EBOR as now positioned can do anything meaningful to fix the advancement.  

[fred8033]

2 hours ago, fred8033 said:

... EBORs do not exist...

Late at night.  Forgot this channel is not just about EBORs.  It just came up because of comment about Eagle scouts not having skills.  But the point is the same.  BORs are not the point to fix advancement failures.  BORs are the time to find out the troop is having trouble.  

I do 100% agree the advancement program needs drastic redesign.  I'd be up for something significantly different.  ...  The most fundamental part I'd like to see is the scout-facing advancement requirements be at least half the number of words.  

Edited November 9, 2022 by fred8033

[curious_scouter]

"If I had more time, I would have written a shorter email requirement."

[Mrjeff]

I'm just not a fan of the idea that everybody gets credit for everything and everybody succeeds.   I believe that jf a candidate for anything is allowed to progress no matter how hard or little they work, or claim completion for tasks that were compled by someone else (ie. mom or dad) they don't deserve to progress.  If they are allowed they lessen the value of the accomplishment for everyone else.

[scoutldr]

20 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

I'm just not a fan of the idea that everybody gets credit for everything and everybody succeeds.   I believe that jf a candidate for anything is allowed to progress no matter how hard or little they work, or claim completion for tasks that were compled by someone else (ie. mom or dad) they don't deserve to progress.  If they are allowed they lessen the value of the accomplishment for everyone else.

Fully agree.  I always believed that our job was to provide the OPPORTUNITY to succeed and advance.  Some of my Scouts made Eagle, and some didn't (including my own two sons).  It was entirely their decision what they did with that opportunity.

[yknot]

17 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

I'm just not a fan of the idea that everybody gets credit for everything and everybody succeeds.   I believe that jf a candidate for anything is allowed to progress no matter how hard or little they work, or claim completion for tasks that were compled by someone else (ie. mom or dad) they don't deserve to progress.  If they are allowed they lessen the value of the accomplishment for everyone else.

 I couldn't agree more. I just don't think that's the role of the BOR in scouting. It's not like school or sports. The BOR is not your report or the final score. It's uniquely scouting. The progression is interwoven with program, and the BOR is not the provider nor the arbiter of that. It is not a retest. It has a formal aspect in confirming that all sign offs are in place and that the lengths of any terms of service have in fact been met and a BOR can and should be paused if those things are in question. Those are within its purview. Other than that it is a discussion by adults with the scout to assess the effectiveness of the program -- it is not an assessment of the individual scout. It is more like getting a passport than a driver's license. The problem with everyone getting credit for everything is a program problem that needs to be addressed by the committee with the SM and the program leadership team right down to any SPLs or senior scouts who may also be doing signoffs. 

[Mrjeff]

I think we're all on the same page.  If a kid doesn't have any Scout skills they should never be permitted to advance to first class.  I also don't think that sewing a troop librarian patch on the sleeve doesn't meet the leadership requirement.  That's not saying that if a kid becomes the librarian,  jumps on it, takes charge of the troop library and does a good job, he or she deserves the credit.  If they don't they don't and this can be evaluated at the board.

[fred8033]

On 11/9/2022 at 3:15 PM, yknot said:

The problem with everyone getting credit for everything is a program problem that needs to be addressed by the committee with the SM and the program leadership team right down to any SPLs or senior scouts who may also be doing signoffs. 

Absolutely agree !  

[Mrjeff]

Whoever it needs to be addressed by isn't the issue.  The issue is an attitude that no one should ever be disappointed or sad.  So to keep this from happening everybody passes everything all the time.  This isn't just true in Scouting, it's common in everything, except maybe football.  As far as Scouting goes if a kid can't tie a few knots, put up a tent, build a fire or preform a little basic first aid they should never be awarded the First Class.  If a kid sits in a Merit Badge session at a Merit Badge University and just breaths the air, they don't get the merit badge.  But then little Timmy gets upset and tells mom or dad who call the office and cause a STINK, and all of a sudden Timmy gets the merit badge.  Timmy then learns that if you shout loud enough and stamp your feet you get what you want even if you don't deserve it.  Or a young person  plans a great Eagle project that is completed mainly by the parents.  This does not satisfy the requirement but the Eagle BOR passes them.   Sorry folks, but this devalues the whole thing for everybody else.  How about a Troop Committee administratively presenting merit badges to a 17 year old kid allowing him to earn Eagle before he turned 18?  Unbelievable, dishonest, unethical, just plane wrong,  diminished the value for Eagles everywhere?  Yes yes yes and yes, but it happened!  If I had been involved in that I would have no no no, that young man would NOT HAVE BEEN AWARDED EAGLE, no matter how sad, mad or disappointed he and his parents were.

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

3 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

How about a Troop Committee administratively presenting merit badges to a 17 year old kid allowing him to earn Eagle before he turned 18?  Unbelievable, dishonest, unethical, just plane wrong,  diminished the value for Eagles everywhere?  Yes yes yes and yes, but it happened!  If I had been involved in that I would have no no no, that young man would NOT HAVE BEEN AWARDED EAGLE, no matter how sad, mad or disappointed he and his parents were.

You have got to be kidding me!!!  Surely it wasn't that egregious??

[InquisitiveScouter]

5 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

Whoever it needs to be addressed by isn't the issue.  The issue is an attitude that no one should ever be disappointed or sad.  So to keep this from happening everybody passes everything all the time.  This isn't just true in Scouting, it's common in everything, except maybe football.  As far as Scouting goes if a kid can't tie a few knots, put up a tent, build a fire or preform a little basic first aid they should never be awarded the First Class.  If a kid sits in a Merit Badge session at a Merit Badge University and just breaths the air, they don't get the merit badge.  But then little Timmy gets upset and tells mom or dad who call the office and cause a STINK, and all of a sudden Timmy gets the merit badge.  Timmy then learns that if you shout loud enough and stamp your feet you get what you want even if you don't deserve it.  Or a young person  plans a great Eagle project that is completed mainly by the parents.  This does not satisfy the requirement but the Eagle BOR passes them.   Sorry folks, but this devalues the whole thing for everybody else.  How about a Troop Committee administratively presenting merit badges to a 17 year old kid allowing him to earn Eagle before he turned 18?  Unbelievable, dishonest, unethical, just plane wrong,  diminished the value for Eagles everywhere?  Yes yes yes and yes, but it happened!  If I had been involved in that I would have no no no, that young man would NOT HAVE BEEN AWARDED EAGLE, no matter how sad, mad or disappointed he and his parents were.

 

I have had many parents ask that I sign something off for their Scout, that the Scout did not do.  When I explain the requirement, most completely agree.  Over many many years, I've only had a small few demand (LOL) that I sign something off.

I politely refused, explaining I did not see how the Scout had completed the requirement.  One even taunted that they'd just get someone else to sign it off.  I tell them I am not responsible for what others do.  I am only responsible for what I do.

Here's a great phrase to unpack in a Scoutmaster's Minute:

"When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest."

[Mrjeff]

51 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

You have got to be kidding me!!!  Surely it wasn't that egregious??

No, it really happened.  Granted, he was active, a good kid and was well liked.  But, he had not completed the Eagle requirements, the paperwork was falsified,  he was not eligible for consideration  for Eagle and he is not an Eagle Scout.  Had I been involved this would not have taken place!!!!!