Scout non-responsive to Life BoR questions; fails BoR; passes new BoR outside his unit

[qwazse]

On 10/6/2022 at 10:56 AM, Eagledad said:

I'm not quite sure what all that means. Who should look at the mirror?

Leadership is a standard BOR question on most BORs all the way to Eagle. Any question from an intimidating adult could be perceived as loaded. So, the issue isn't the question, it is the stressful BOR environment. And, if it is stressful for one scout, it is likely a problem for several. …

Every adult in the troop should look in the mirror together. This is not necessarily about an intimidating adult. The MC and others in the board could be on even terms with the scout. But, in a formal process designed to get feedback on troop life, when a scout knows that two of the adults in the room don’t trust the SM … a “standard BoR question” can leave a scout thinking about how much his/her response will be used to indict the leader who is not in the room. When a brain starts running in that direction, it gives the mouth nothing to say.

In a troop where the SM trusts the CC and MC, I would assure the scout that we have a bond of brotherly love even when we disagree, affirm that a sincere observation respectfully delivered matters, and encourage him to convey that to the board. (Yes, I’ve said that to scouts in my units.) This is not that environment.

We both agree that something needs to be repaired between these caring adults. We don’t know if the SM is dodging the problem. She may be working on it, but she may think it would take more time than the scout deserved to wait to complete a personal growth conference. So, she phoned a friend. The “independent” boots on the ground thought it was a good idea in this case. If we truly had a deficient scout, he might have clammed up at the second board as well. But, the second board concluded that the boy in front of them was a life scout. I wouldn’t call that dodging the problem, I would call it keeping the youths’ personal growth from becoming a pawn in the adults’ problem.

Could what happened be stressful for other scouts? From personal experience, I’ve observed that to be the case. But not every scout handles interpersonal stress the same way, and not every scout has their BoR at a time of peak stress. Let’s hope that both of those factors (along with resolution on the part of adults) come into play at future BoR’s.

[Oldscout448]

On 10/5/2022 at 1:41 PM, Eagle94-A1 said:

Anyone else remember when Scouts sat on BORs for the T-2-1 ranks?

Yup,  sat on quite a few.  It worked very well for my troop mostly because we had a goodly number of scouts stick around until they turned 18.  

[jcousino]

i have always been told the BOR was for the troop committee to judge the heath and life in the troop through the scout's perspective.

Not to judge the scouts worthiness for the rank

BOR  cannot retest, what is signed is done its not up for debate.

Asking about how things were earned  goes back to the idea of troop process and health. 

The scoutmaster has already signed off on spirit and hours in position so that done 

Asking about how things were in that position goes  back to the idea of troop process and health.

Not sure what's left, sorry but at time adults on a BOR get on little power trip.

If there is problem with a SM then the committee needs to fix the issue or ask the CO to replace the SM

They really are the last with say so on scout Spirit.

j

 

 

Edited October 31, 2022 by jcousino

[Eagle94-A1]

8 hours ago, jcousino said:

i have always been told the BOR was for the troop committee to judge the heath and life in the troop through the scout's perspective.

Not to judge the scouts worthiness for the rank

BOR  cannot retest, what is signed is done its not up for debate.

Asking about how things were earned  goes back to the idea of troop process and health. 

The scoutmaster has already signed off on spirit and hours in position so that done 

Asking about how things were in that position goes  back to the idea of troop process and health.

Not sure what's left, sorry but at time adults on a BOR get on little power trip.

If there is problem with a SM then the committee needs to fix the issue or ask the CO to replace the SM

They really are the last with say so on scout Spirit.

j

 

 

From the Guide to Advancement page 52:

8.0.0.1 Purpose and Timeliness of Boards of Review After a Scout has completed the requirements for any rank (except Scout rank), he or she appears before a board of review. A board of review must be a personal and individual experience. Its purpose is to determine the quality of the Scout’s experience and decide whether the requirements for the rank have been fulfilled. (emphasis added) If so, the board not only approves the Scout’s advancement but also provides encouragement to continue the quest for the next rank. Because the board of review date becomes the effective advancement date, boards should be scheduled promptly as Scouts are ready or set up on a regular basis that assures Scouts are not delayed in beginning time oriented requirements for the next rank. Note that Scouts must be registered through the time they are working on advancement requirements, but need not be registered thereafter or when their boards of review are conducted.

[fred8033]

31 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

From the Guide to Advancement page 52: ... and decide whether the requirements for the rank have been fulfilled. ...

Yes.  BOR has that option.  IMHO, a scout not participating in a BOR can and probably does trigger suspending the BOR.  ... The key is it's to be extremely rare that a BOR faces saying NO the requirements have not been fulfilled.  Missing badge?  Short on POR time ?  All badge signed by the dad?  ... The BOR triggering this condition is to be very rare.

[yknot]

On 10/5/2022 at 6:26 PM, DuctTape said:

 I believe this is what makes scouting unique compared to all other youth activities except perhaps 4-H (although I am not sure how intentional it is within their history and structure as it is with Scouting.)

In 4-H I think it's pretty close although from my experience, and much as it is in scouting, it is very much driven by the individual youth and how they utilize the program. There are any number of growth opportunities in 4-H, not just specific to your club or interest, but also within the organization as a whole. There are all sorts of opportunities for youth leaders and development of leadership skills all the way up to National 4-H Congress occurring next month. 

[skeptic]

13 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

Yup,  sat on quite a few.  It worked very well for my troop mostly because we had a goodly number of scouts stick around until they turned 18.  

In my view this element of youth leadership was a critical growth opportunity for upcoming youth.  If it was done properly with an adult or two in supervision to avoid youth harrassment, it worked well for all.  Peer pressure is still a good option for youth interaction and learing.  And, I truly feel that this should be reimplemented into the modern programing.  

[jcousino]

thanks for the up date

looks like i was wrong based on 8.0.1.5

After the Review
If a board does not approve, the candidate must be so
informed and told what can be done to improve. Most
Scouts accept responsibility for their behavior or for not
completing requirements properly. 

I am still having a little trouble with that

• once a merit badge is sign off it has been earned even if the dad signed. if they were approved  listed councilor
• ( advance chairmen needs to limit badge through the committee or district)
• Scouts are not held back because of errors of adults 
• Scoutmaster signed scoutmaster conference off so it was completed

back to my original point what does the BOR have the power to do.

Maybe this is just an other place scouting guideline and rules conflict.

If i need to go outside the troop that tells a bigger story i will be joining the second troop

 

Ps just an off the wall question i know a scout can be a member of difference groups( ie troop and and a crew) and work on scout level ranks with the crew

can a scout be a member in two troops?

 

[fred8033]

15 minutes ago, jcousino said:

back to my original point what does the BOR have the power to do.

Think of it not as "power" and more as "flexibility".   There are too many possible situations to write clean, concise rules that handle everything.  So, BSA documents the recommended approach and mindset.  ... From there, the BOR can address scout misbehavior, parents abusing the advancement system, etc, etc, etc.

If the BOR uses good judgement, the appeal levels will backup and support the BOR. 

If not, then the BOR can easily be overridden to support the scout.  

 

15 minutes ago, jcousino said:

can a scout be a member in two troops?

Recently answered here.  Short answer yes.
https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2022/08/26/ask-us-anything-we-answer-some-of-your-most-frequently-asked-questions-3/#:~:text=From the BSA's registration guidebook,far away from each other.

If this is related to this situation, I'd really question the scout and the adults involved.  I'd really, really, really hate seeing the troops pitted against one another.  Scout active in one troop, but trouble with getting advanced.  So, they work advancement in the other troop.  IMHO, this is when adults need to start talking and working together.  ...  Perhaps BSA should emphasize rank advancement happens within your primary registration.  I know I'd be really upset with a secondary registration troop that promoted the rank of a scout primarily registered in my troop ... especially if our troop was having issues with the scout.

 

Edited October 31, 2022 by fred8033

[yknot]

12 hours ago, jcousino said:

i have always been told the BOR was for the troop committee to judge the heath and life in the troop through the scout's perspective.

Not to judge the scouts worthiness for the rank

BOR  cannot retest, what is signed is done its not up for debate.

 

I agree and I think you're right

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

From the Guide to Advancement page 52:

8.0.0.1 Purpose and Timeliness of Boards of Review After a Scout has completed the requirements for any rank (except Scout rank), he or she appears before a board of review. A board of review must be a personal and individual experience. Its purpose is to determine the quality of the Scout’s experience and decide whether the requirements for the rank have been fulfilled. (emphasis added) 

I read this as you confirm all appropriate signoffs are in the record and that any other associated requirements, like registration or length of service, have been met. On page 20, GTSS states once something has been signed off on, it's been met and can't be retested. On page 22, it states scout spirit is to be assessed by how a scout lives daily life, something that would be known to the SM and not a BOR composed of committee members who may never encounter the scout except in passing. If the unit leader -- SM -- has cleared the scout for a BOR, the GTA indicates that requirement has been met. Nowhere in the GTA does is state that a BOR can fail a scout for being nonresponsive in the actual room out of fear of someone on the BOR or stage fright.   

[yknot]

32 minutes ago, jcousino said:

thanks for the up date

looks like i was wrong based on 8.0.1.5

After the Review
If a board does not approve, the candidate must be so
informed and told what can be done to improve. Most
Scouts accept responsibility for their behavior or for not
completing requirements properly. 

I am still having a little trouble with that

• once a merit badge is sign off it has been earned even if the dad signed. if they were approved  listed councilor
• ( advance chairmen needs to limit badge through the committee or district)
• Scouts are not held back because of errors of adults 
• Scoutmaster signed scoutmaster conference off so it was completed

back to my original point what does the BOR have the power to do.

Maybe this is just an other place scouting guideline and rules conflict.

If i need to go outside the troop that tells a bigger story i will be joining the second troop

 

Ps just an off the wall question i know a scout can be a member of difference groups( ie troop and and a crew) and work on scout level ranks with the crew

can a scout be a member in two troops?

 

I don't think there is that big of a conflict because I think GTA makes it pretty clear that you are very limited in what a BOR can fail a scout for but if you do, you have to outline the steps they need to take, which would either be fix it or appeal. Units sometimes come up with their own requirements for things like minimum attendance, which they are allowed to do within reason, but generally they don't hold up on appeal or even make it out of the building because of all the other exemptions that are also outlined in GTA. 

Edited October 31, 2022 by yknot

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, jcousino said:

once a merit badge is sign off it has been earned even if the dad signed. if they were approved  listed councilor

No...

Consider a Scout with Hiking MB, using this MB for rank advancement, and a BoR member asks the Scout where he completed the 20-mile hike, and what he thought about it.  Scout says he never did that requirement.  Now we have an issue.  (It should not have gotten to that point, but the BoR could uncover things like this.) 

Hopefully, the BoR would ask the ask the Scout what he thinks he should do in that situation, and, hopefully, the Scout would have the integrity to want to complete the requirements as stated.  If this is the agreement, the BoR could suspend until another time.

I have seen this go both ways... Scout agrees to come back to the BoR after he finishes the requirement.  And, in another case, Scout (and aprent) say, No, the counselor and unit leader signed it off, so we're gonna go with that.  Again, this is a good opportunity to discuss integrity, but, as others have pointed out, we will never penalize the Scout for the mistakes made by two adults (counselor, and leader who signed off the badge at the end of the process.)

1 hour ago, jcousino said:

Scoutmaster signed scoutmaster conference off so it was completed

I'm not sure I understand this.  The SM Conference (SMC) is not required to be completed after all the other requirements are done, although this is the scheme used by most.  (An SMC could actually be the first requirement a Scout gets signed off for that rank advancement!)

Edited October 31, 2022 by InquisitiveScouter

[fred8033]

48 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

... mistakes made by two adults (counselor, and leader who signed off the badge at the end of the process.)

Minor clarification.  It's just the MBC signature that defines the badge as done.  The unit leader signature is just evidence that the badge was handed over to the unit.  Proof that "hey, I gave you the merit badge card.  I have proof."  ... it's not confirming the badge was earned.  That's fully in the hands of the merit badge counselor.

[InquisitiveScouter]

Just now, fred8033 said:

Minor clarification.  It's just the MBC signature that defines the badge as done.  The unit leader signature is just evidence that the badge was handed over to the unit.  Proof that "hey, I gave you the merit badge card.  I have proof."  ... it's not confirming the badge was earned.  That's fully in the hands of the merit badge counselor.

Not quite... 

GTA

7.0.4.7 Limited Recourse for Unearned Merit Badges From time to time, it may be discovered that merit badges could not actually have been earned. For example, a Scout who returns from summer camp or a merit badge fair with evidence for an extraordinary number of badges could raise concerns. If, after consulting with those involved in the merit badge program—such as an event coordinator, the camp director, or a merit badge counselor—it becomes plainly evident that a youth could not have actually and personally fulfilled requirements as written, then the limited recourse outlined below is available. It may result in a decision that some or all of the requirements for a badge could not have been fulfilled, and thus, that the badge was not actually earned. After such a consultation, the unit leader, in a positive environment similar to that of a unit leader conference, discusses with the Scout the circumstances under which a merit badge in question was approved. A parent or an assistant unit leader should attend as an observer. The Scout shall not be retested on the requirements, but a conversation with the Scout can reveal if he or she attended the class, and actually and personally fulfilled all the requirements. Such a discussion could cover who taught a class, what sort of activities took place, where and when they occurred, how testing was done, what the Scout might have brought home from the class, and other similar process-oriented details. In most cases, with a fair and friendly approach, a Scout who did not complete the requirements will admit it. Short of this, however, if it remains clear under the circumstances that some or all of the requirements could not have been met, then the merit badge is not reported or awarded, and does not count toward advancement. The unit leader then offers the name of at least one other merit badge counselor through whom any incomplete requirements may be finished. Note that in this case a merit badge is not “taken away” because, although signed off, it was never actually earned. Just as we avoid penalizing Scouts for the mistakes of adults, it should be a rare occurrence that a unit leader finds the need to question whether merit badges have been earned. This procedure for recourse is limited and reserved only for clear and evident cases of noncompletion or nonparticipation. For example, the recourse could be allowed when it would not have been possible to complete a specific requirement at the location of the class, event, or camp; if time available was not sufficient—perhaps due to class size or other factors—for the counselor to observe that each Scout personally and actually completed all the requirements; if time available was insufficient for a “calendar” requirement such as for Personal Fitness or Personal Management; or if multiple merit badges in question were scheduled at the same time. This procedure is not to be viewed as an opportunity for retesting on requirements, for interjecting another set of standards over those of a merit badge counselor, or for debating issues such as whether a Scout was strong enough, mature enough, or old enough to have completed requirements. Unit leaders who find it necessary to make use of this recourse must act quickly—if possible, within 30 days of discovery. It is inappropriate to delay a Scout’s advancement with anything less than a prompt decision. If Scouts or their parents or guardians believe a unit leader has incorrectly determined that a merit badge was not earned, or more than 30 days have passed without a reasonable explanation for the lack of a decision, they should address their concerns with the unit committee. They should first, however, develop a thorough understanding of the merit badge requirements and that each one must be passed exactly as it is set forth. Upon encountering any merit badge program where BSA standards are not upheld, unit leaders are strongly encouraged to report the incident to the council advancement committee, preferably using the form found in the appendix (see “Reporting Merit Badge Counseling Concerns,” 11.1.0.0).

[fred8033]

6 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Not quite...   GTA  7.0.4.7 Limited Recourse for Unearned Merit Badges ...

That does not 100% map.  Even if the unit leader signs, the unit can still apply the above GTA 7.0.4.7.  GTA 7.0.4.7 exists to give the unit flexibility to correct a bad situation.  Very similar to the BOR discussion in this thread. 

My point is it is absolutely wrong to think / treat the unit leader signatures as approving the badge.  That is absolutely not the point of the unit leader signing the badge.   

The point is:  The MBC approves the badge; not the unit leader.

Edited October 31, 2022 by fred8033