Recruiting Lions

[FireStone]

Lions was a good idea in theory, but in practice it isn't working. Nor did I really expect it to. I had my daughter skip it and join as a Tiger, which sometimes I think might even still be too young for kids to start in scouts.

Lions is super repetitive with other rank requirements. I have already heard from scouts who joined as tigers saying things like "We did this already," for the stuff that is already repetitive among the Tiger-through-AOL ranks. Lions just adds yet another year of repeated material.

Lions parents end up feeling like they are getting a somewhat limited program but they're still paying full price. And they don't get the benefit of a regular den leader, but are asked to share the responsibility among all of the parents. Which on the one hand can be a good way to figure out who might be the Tiger DL next year. But it also sometimes leaves parents feeling like they are in a lesser program while, again, paying full price.

That said, they're Kindergarteners so the Lions program being a little "light" is probably still the best way to run it. But it just feels like it comes up a bit short for some parents who want their kids to get the full Cub Scout experience right away.

I'm also not seeing great retention numbers from kids who were Lions. I think that Webelo burnout from Lions scouts is very real. And some of the parents have zero interest in helping out the Pack because they seem to think that they did their time as a Lions partner, planned a couple of meetings, and now it's someone else's job.

There really isn't much about the Lions program that makes me think it has been worth it. I feel like we even had better recruiting numbers before Lions, when we only had to recruit Tigers and they were at a better age for starting in Scouting.

 

 

[JSL3300]

8 minutes ago, FireStone said:

 

There really isn't much about the Lions program that makes me think it has been worth it. I feel like we even had better recruiting numbers before Lions, when we only had to recruit Tigers and they were at a better age for starting in Scouting.

 

 

This is a really good point. Because it starts at Kindergarten, it's possible that even first grade parents feel like it's "too late" for them to start because it's a program in motion. Now, we see the majority of our recruitment numbers in Lions and then get a smattering in the other grades. 

[cmd]

20 minutes ago, JSL3300 said:

This is a really good point. Because it starts at Kindergarten, it's possible that even first grade parents feel like it's "too late" for them to start because it's a program in motion. Now, we see the majority of our recruitment numbers in Lions and then get a smattering in the other grades. 

I think the eager parents join at whatever grade is the first one offered.  It makes sense that you'll get fewer older kids joining because you've already captured the segment of the market that is most interested. If Bears were the youngest, then you suddenly added Wolves, you'd have one year where both programs had high numbers because you hadn't tried to recruit the easy sells yet, then the number of new Bears would drop the next year. And the overall number of bears might drop, too, just because it's normal for some kids to not like scouts and not return for a second year, no matter what age they start. 

I'm still not convinced how much lions does for the youth, but I firmly believe it benefits the health of the pack.  Without exception, our leadership team is made up of people who joined at their first opportunity.  For some of us that was tigers and for others that was lions, and for one, it was whatever age his daughter was when they allowed her to join. We oddly seem to have very few families with more than one son.  Having the Lion program and adding girls have improved the long-term stability of our pack by letting us keep leaders around as long as neighboring packs with some boy-heavy families have.  Leader burnout is real, but the solution to that is making sure the leaders feel supported, not just cutting a year off the time they serve.  The leaders I work with are a family that I want to be a part of and the reason that I stuck around after my son aged out. 

[yknot]

55 minutes ago, JSL3300 said:

This is a really good point. Because it starts at Kindergarten, it's possible that even first grade parents feel like it's "too late" for them to start because it's a program in motion. Now, we see the majority of our recruitment numbers in Lions and then get a smattering in the other grades. 

Scouting ought to be a sampling menu at kindergarten and maybe even first grade levels. It ought to be a spring or summer program where you attend a couple of den or pack activities and culminates in being able to attend a pack or district event like a special overnight camp out or fishing derby or something fun. Most other youth activities at that age are very basic, very low key, and cost practically nothing. They run for a short session and generally culminate in some big hoorah. BSA says it relied on research when formulating the Lions program but that is always suspect. It doesn't seem to be well thought out but more a knee jerk way of trying to bring in more membership money. 

[yknot]

1 hour ago, FireStone said:

 

I'm also not seeing great retention numbers from kids who were Lions. I think that Webelo burnout from Lions scouts is very real. And some of the parents have zero interest in helping out the Pack because they seem to think that they did their time as a Lions partner, planned a couple of meetings, and now it's someone else's job.

 

I agree about Webelos burnout. I also think it is linked to the fact that life starts to get more 'real' for many kids at the 4th and 5th grade level nowadays and they start to focus their interests more because of time pressures. Years ago, kids would start worrying about what college they would get into in high school. Now, they are tracked starting in middle school. Elementary kids today are very aware of not wanting to be in say the basic math class when they get to 5th or 6th grade and so robotics club might suddenly be more interesting than cubs. At the same time, they are also at an age where many of them no longer want to hang around with 3rd graders and below and pack meetings start to become something to dread. From a kid perspective, these things contribute to drop out. 

[yknot]

4 hours ago, JSL3300 said:

Oh my gosh, this is exactly it! Cubs is so fun and that initial run at scouts just... isn't. I think we have extraordinary mediocre leaders, both youth and adult, in my son's troop and that doesn't help matters. It makes me feel better to know that that rocky transition isn't unique to our situation. I'm trying to better prepare the den of Webelos that I lead now for that transition. Hope that leads to more retention for the group. 

 

 

I think the rocky transition is the norm from what I've seen. It's a tough transition and when it doesn't go well you will hear that the adult leaders aren't trained properly or the scouts weren't prepared well as cubs or some other reason. I personally think it's a defect in the program because it only seems to work well when there is a perfect alchemy. A program shouldn't be that hard to deliver when so many mean so well and work so hard. I don't think the attitude that chaos is the norm, which said different ways is alternatively trial by fire, or school of hard knocks, or sink or swim, or some other grueling experience meant to be endured and survived, keeps many kids in scouting. Crossing over shouldn't equate to a virtual hazing, but to many kids, that's what it feels like. I've watched a lot of kids who had the makings of great scouts quit after crossover. Most of the reasons, when you could get them to articulate anything, because they don't offend you as someone they associate with scouting, is that scouting stopped being fun and instead became boring at best and extremely stressful at worst. If there isn't a defect in the program, then there must be a defect in our philosophy that scouting is good for every kid because obviously, for anywhere from 30-60% after crossover, it is not. It's been a puzzle to me all these years why BSA ignores that.

[HashTagScouts]

1 hour ago, yknot said:

Scouting ought to be a sampling menu at kindergarten and maybe even first grade levels. It ought to be a spring or summer program where you attend a couple of den or pack activities and culminates in being able to attend a pack or district event like a special overnight camp out or fishing derby or something fun. Most other youth activities at that age are very basic, very low key, and cost practically nothing. They run for a short session and generally culminate in some big hoorah. BSA says it relied on research when formulating the Lions program but that is always suspect. It doesn't seem to be well thought out but more a knee jerk way of trying to bring in more membership money. 

When New England Base Camp began in earnest, bullet points would get whispered about how much interest there was from young boys and girls and their parents about "what Scouting had to offer", and how much the BSA should be learning from the feedback. I'm sure those kids, both boys and girls, did and do like a half day of lighting fires, throwing tomahawks, shooting BB guns, having chicken nuggets/tater tots cooked for them at the kitchen, moving from one program area to another with their parent when they are ready to move on, etc. Does any of that actually translate to whether they would have enjoyment when you put it into a larger program that involves full day or weekends at camp, pack meetings, weekly den meetings (and not necessarily on the afternoon/evening that is best/most convenient for the parent), having to memorize oaths, wearing uniforms, doing fundraisers, and generally not getting to move about as individuals but as groups? Not particularly. There are many elements within Scouting that can have appeal to a great number of youth, but when all packaged together, it may not be everyone's cup of tea, and trying to continually tinker with how we can make it so seems to bring in as many numbers equal to those it pushes out is my observation from the last decade+. Heck, we're at a place in time where there are actual conversations happening that could be implemented to no longer require an individual to go through Ordeal for membership in the Order of the Arrow, because it seems to exclude some who might not enjoy the activities that happen during the Ordeal.

[fred8033]

I'd argue younger siblings were already enjoying scouting when packs had family events.  K, 1st and 2nd got to see the pack and experience the benefits.  ... There is relatively little special about cubs in the very, very early years.  The only loss is BSA membership revenue for those three years.  But those gains are made up in big membership loses in later years.  

If I had to do it over again, I would have started my sons in scouting in 3rd or 4th grade.  Nothing would have been lost.  Younger siblings would have been able to participate in plenty of pack events. 

Edited October 7, 2022 by fred8033

[BetterWithCheddar]

I'm about 2 months into my tenure as a Lions Den Leader. We just had our first Den meeting on Tuesday.

Most Scouts in our Pack are from the same elementary school. The school allows us to hold our monthly Pack meeting in the school cafeteria, but has limited meeting time / space for other groups. Fortunately, I was able to reserve a community room at our public library for Den meetings. This turned out to be a stroke of good luck because parents told me they liked having the opportunity to let their kids check out books before or after the meeting. Some families let older siblings tag along and browse the stacks while the Lion Scout and parent participated in the Den meeting. I was just desperate to find a reliable and convenient meeting location, but may have stumbled upon a winner.

The theme of our first meeting was "Meet the Lions." We spent 10 minutes discussing the Scout Oath and Law so the Scouts could complete the "Lion's Honor" adventure and earn their first belt loop. The rest of the meeting was spent decorating their own poster board with drawings of 1) their hobbies and interests, 2) their families, and 3) what the hoped to do in Scouting this year. Afterwards, they had an opportunity to share their poster with the Den. I thought this went well. They seemed engaged and never got too silly. There was good interaction between Scouts and parents. Plus, all of the boys were brave enough to stand up in front of the group and talk about their posters.

Interesting take-away: 4 of the 5 Scouts drew something camping-related for what they hoped to do in Scouting this year. The 5th Scout (mine) drew a bunch of badges because he's really excited to earn awards this year. I don't think this is due to a narcissistic high need for achievement, but rather a Minions short film where the Minions join the "Badger Scouts" and try to earn merit badges.

Here's my dilemma: I've got 5 brand new scouts who want to get outdoors, but winter can be unforgiving in our region and it won't be reliably nice out again until May. I think I'll bring a small tent to our next Den meeting and challenge the boys to put it together as a gathering activity (just to give them a taste of the outdoors), but that may only satisfy them for another month.

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

36 minutes ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

I'm about 2 months into my tenure as a Lions Den Leader. We just had our first Den meeting on Tuesday.

Most Scouts in our Pack are from the same elementary school. The school allows us to hold our monthly Pack meeting in the school cafeteria, but has limited meeting time / space for other groups. Fortunately, I was able to reserve a community room at our public library for Den meetings. This turned out to be a stroke of good luck because parents told me they liked having the opportunity to let their kids check out books before or after the meeting. Some families let older siblings tag along and browse the stacks while the Lion Scout and parent participated in the Den meeting. I was just desperate to find a reliable and convenient meeting location, but may have stumbled upon a winner.

The theme of our first meeting was "Meet the Lions." We spent 10 minutes discussing the Scout Oath and Law so the Scouts could complete the "Lion's Honor" adventure and earn their first belt loop. The rest of the meeting was spent decorating their own poster board with drawings of 1) their hobbies and interests, 2) their families, and 3) what the hoped to do in Scouting this year. Afterwards, they had an opportunity to share their poster with the Den. I thought this went well. They seemed engaged and never got too silly. There was good interaction between Scouts and parents. Plus, all of the boys were brave enough to stand up in front of the group and talk about their posters.

Interesting take-away: 4 of the 5 Scouts drew something camping-related for what they hoped to do in Scouting this year. The 5th Scout (mine) drew a bunch of badges because he's really excited to earn awards this year. I don't think this is due to a narcissistic high need for achievement, but rather a Minions short film where the Minions join the "Badger Scouts" and try to earn merit badges.

Here's my dilemma: I've got 5 brand new scouts who want to get outdoors, but winter can be unforgiving in our region and it won't be reliably nice out again until May. I think I'll bring a small tent to our next Den meeting and challenge the boys to put it together as a gathering activity (just to give them a taste of the outdoors), but that may only satisfy them for another month.

 

Well done!  You know that Cub Scouts are not allowed to do winter camping***.  But, see if a local camp has heated cabins.  Take them (and parents, of course)to the camp and have a winter experience.  Maybe they will see some Scouts camping out and aspire to that.

Then explain that they have much to learn about taking care of themselves and learning to work together before you can take them camping in warmer weather.

*** of course, BSA does not define winter camping.  Is that camping from winter solstice until vernal equinox?  Doesn't really fit with Cubs in South Florida ;p. 

Is it camping out when the temp reaches 32F?  We have had great fall Cub camping trips when there has been a little frost on the pumpkin...

There is room for good judgement here.  If your winters are harsh, but you have a heated space where your Lions can sleep and retreat to when they are cold, I think they'll really enjoy  it.

Hopefully, the space is big enough to set up tents inside!  This would be great training.

[cmd]

On 10/22/2022 at 6:57 AM, BetterWithCheddar said:

Here's my dilemma: I've got 5 brand new scouts who want to get outdoors, but winter can be unforgiving in our region and it won't be reliably nice out again until May. I think I'll bring a small tent to our next Den meeting and challenge the boys to put it together as a gathering activity (just to give them a taste of the outdoors), but that may only satisfy them for another month.

You might be surprised by how much mileage you could get out of just having a tent set up in the corner of your meeting space and allowing kids to pretend they're camping.  We had one set up at a joining night one year and it was the popular spot for all ages of cubs, including ones who regularly go camping. 

If you can get permission to have a lock-in overnight in a church fellowship hall or gymnasium, you could set up tents and a fake campfire, do some skits, etc.  

Another activity our older scouts do, but that would work well for little ones with a slightly tamer hill, is a sledding day someplace where you can get permission to bring a fire pit.  Then you have the opportunity to cook hot dogs and make smores without actually going camping in the cold weather.  

[mrjohns2]

1 hour ago, cmd said:

If you can get permission to have a lock-in overnight in a church fellowship hall or gymnasium, you could set up tents and a fake campfire, do some skits, etc.  

Packs have rented our camp’s dinning hall (minus kitchen) to tent inside. Most loved it. You could do sledding outside and then go home. 

[DannyG]

Our Pack's Lions are usually the younger sibling of an older Cub Scout. We recruit at Elementary schools in the beginning of the year. It's a tougher sell to Kindergarten parents, who are still figuring out the school stuff. They don't want another obligation.

One tip I found out the hard way: Make sure you have an already trained leader to start the Lions. Once they begin meeting, then you can hit them that parents have to help deliver the program. If you start out with: We have a Lions program but we also need adult leaders to run it... They are not going to be as receptive to your program.

Our Lions meet at the same time as our other dens. Because the older sibling is already there, Lions will be around too. It doesn't hurt to repeat or stretch out Lions achievements. Just make it fun and active.

[cmd]

We currently have 6 lions and 1 tiger in our combined den - having lost the one kid from each rank who registered online over the summer, but gaining several more around Halloween.  I'm thinking that families need a month or two to settle into school before thinking about adding something else.

I'm the perpetual den leader of record for the new dens since even if you had a parent agree to lead on day 1, getting them registered and trained takes time.  Telling the parents that once or twice over the course of the year they'll be expected to present the meeting using one of our lesson plans has been an easy sell. Hopefuly at the end of the year one will be ready to take on more. I don't know why they dropped the "Lion Guide" position that the pilot program had instead of a normal den leader role  That's really the way this program works best.

[BetterWithCheddar]

I'm halfway through my tenure as a Lion Den Leader.  I've tried very hard to simplify everything from our calendar to the advancement requirements, but I've learned I've got about 10 minutes of "instruction time" before our den meetings need to give way to fun and games. If the Lion year were still in its pilot phase, I would enthusiastically recommend holding off until 1st Grade. I'm pleased my son and his friends seem to look forward to their meetings (and that alone has made it worth it), but it's sapped a lot of energy and enthusiasm from me.