Recruiting Lions

[cmd]

How do other people "sell" the Lion program?  
My understanding is that the recommendation is that the kindergarten crowd should have 2 meetings each month, about 40 minutes long, and only have the pack meeting and events loosely mentioned to them, not really pushed.

We've had a number of people interested in trying it out, but $130(assuming the pack doesn't ask for any dues from them) plus uniform plus book hasn't turned out to be an easy sell.  Broken down over the course of the year it's not a huge amount, but any kind of sports kids sign up for at this age tend to be a month or two long and priced accordingly.  Families who already know they want cub scouts for their child get over the sticker shock and enroll anyway, but the ones that just dropped by the table because they're looking for some sort of team or club for their child to make some friends aren't going to give us a chance to prove that it's worth it.  They're going to keep going to the next table and sign their child up for 4 weeks of lacrosse skills for $25.  

 

 

[Eagle1993]

I used to be a fan of the Lions program as it provided an early scouting experience and aligned with GSUSA Daisies (plus the timing when many kids start sports).  However, I am seeing local evidence that both volunteers and youth burn out on scouting at a higher rate if they start as Lions.  I'm not sure if that trends across my council or nationally.

We kept Lions to a one meeting OR outing per month. Very limited attendance at Pack meetings.  We charged no pack fee and didnt have them sell popcorn.  The high BSA fee is a turnoff.  In terms of uniform, you could skip the Lion shirt and just have them buy the Cub Scout uniform.   It only needs to last through 3rd grade.

BSA should make Lions very cheap, $25 only with no council fee.  Their pricing on Cub Scouts and the length of time in the Pack is damaging the long term health of the overall program.

[Eagle1993]

Just for some info.  My first Lion den had over 30 scouts.  Those scouts are now in 6th grade and 3 crossed over. I had 4 den leaders... 0 of their kids crossed over (and clearly they didn't as well).  I asked why and nearly every parent said they were done with scouting.... They felt it ran it's course.  I explained Scouts BSA was different but it didn't work. 

[qwazse]

To amplify @Eagle1993’s observation, we were swarmed with crossovers in February, and very few were lions. Since then we have had roughly one new scout a month, some were never cubs, some quit while bears, some were waiting to cross over.

Lions, while a nice service for parents who don’t know how to arrange play dates, is having little influence on retention of middle school youth.

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

To amplify @Eagle1993’s observation, we were swarmed with crossovers in February, and very few were lions.

Will not see the first Lions become Scouts until next year. Lions started in 2018.

[cmd]

Given that we haven't had a Lions cohort go all the way through without the interruption of covid, I don't think we can say yet what impact the new rank has on retention.

Were you guys in packs that had an early pilot program?  I'm surprised you had any that started as Lions.  Our 6th & 7th graders didn't have the opportunity to be Lions and our current lack of any 5th graders is because we didn't have a Lion den but the troops on both sides of us were chosen for the pilot program and the next year they had solid groups moving in to Tigers and leaders trained and ready to go.  We did our best to recruit Tigers, but most called up a day or two later to say they just found out their kid's friend was in one of the other packs and could they transfer.  And all the parents who were invested in the idea of their kids doing cub scouts had signed them up as soon as they were eligible, not leaving good leader prospects.  So, whether or not the Lion program is a good idea over all, not having that rank when the other options in your area do puts a pack at a disadvantage for years.  

Our 4th graders are the first that started at Lions and they're a nice solid group, roughly the same size as when they started.  There HAS been a fair bit of turnover of who the kids in the group are, but starting with a solid Lion den gave us a group to recruit those later kids into. 

I will say, though, that I don't think there's any need for the advancement piece at this age.  I would love to replace Lions with a true "Family Scouting" program for K and even younger that offered a family camping opportunity 1-2 times a year and maybe a few hikes and an easy service project like maybe one block of Scouting for Food or just asking them to bring in something to build a Thanksgiving basket together for a family in need.  Younger siblings are welcome at all our pack events, and it always makes me a little sad to know there's no way to extend that experience to kids without an older sibling.  
So, maybe my answer is wrapped in that idea - $130 is a lot to pay for one child, but if the family is invited to everything, then it's $130 for a year of experiences for your entire family.  That's actually a pretty good deal. 
Just have to make sure I don't pitch it that way to anyone with an older child already in the group who is already serving as their admission ticket to pack events!

[Eagledad]

4 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

I used to be a fan of the Lions program as it provided an early scouting experience and aligned with GSUSA Daisies (plus the timing when many kids start sports).  However, I am seeing local evidence that both volunteers and youth burn out on scouting at a higher rate if they start as Lions.  I'm not sure if that trends across my council or nationally.

Most folks here know that I am a anti Tiger person because I found through a lot of research that Tigers strangles the ALL the other ages because it burns out the adults. Lions will only push that issue faster. If National feels peronoid about membership at the toddler age, then they need to look at a seperate program like the GSUSA Daisies that takes the burdon of toddler maturity away from the pack, and provides a divide where adults can say, No!, I need a break.

 

4 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

We kept Lions to a one meeting OR outing per month. Very limited attendance at Pack meetings.  We charged no pack fee and didnt have them sell popcorn. 

We changed our Tiger program to one meeting a month led by parents with the assistance of a pack adult mentor. We made a few other changes with the intention of taking as much burden off the adults as possible. Our Tiger to Wolf retention went from 20 percent to 90 percent.

Do, what it takes to save your program. I know of several packs that skipped Tigers and maintained their Wolf numbers the next year. A packs long range goals should be to get their scouts to crossover. That is a huge goal. On average, only 50% of Webelos even crossover to troops. That doesn't include the membership drop outs at the younger ages.

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Will not see the first Lions become Scouts until next year. Lions started in 2018.

Normally, observing Troop membership is a good indicator to how program changes are performing, but covid has everything messed up. A guess is that 2022 is really the first year baseline leaving 2028 as the indicator for Troop membership. BUT, We already noted a measurable drop in Troop membership in 2006 after national made huge program changes to the Tiger program in 2000. I can't imagine Lions doing any better.

I've felt that Lions should be, what is now the first year Webelos with a program that starts the scouting into independent decision making, but with the family. The 2nd year Webelos would be more advanced toward a troop program (basically more independence without the family), but still a den program. But, National never seems to to consider my brilliant ideas. LOL.

Barry

 

[ajherkert]

I will chime in. Posted my story in the Introductions thread just yesterday if u want more background on me,

in short: I am new to Parent Leadership but 30 years so far as a Scout 

I started with Tiger Cubs in 1992 and earned Eagle in 2003. That's 11 years start to finish.

if I would have been a Lion, it'd have been a 12 year run. Not too much a difference in the grand scheme is it?

as we all know, only about 4% of scouts earn rank of Eagle before aging out or just quitting BSA.

the key to my success was simply that of family legacy (i'm a 3rd gen Eagle), plus longevity with program, and indoctrination.
 

IMO the Lion Program increases the chances of having more eagles by starting the Scouts at a younger age.

How we make it fun, fulfilling, engaging?

Come on now.. that's up to us - parent leaders are 100% in control.

 

Currently I am a Den Leader with 5 Lions, my Son being one of them of course. He is loving it.

We also have another Lion in the bullpen, our 2.5year old who is excited to follow his brother's footsteps.
 

I'll be  following this discussion closely and updating as we make progress with our Den.

Edited September 20, 2022 by ajherkert

[qwazse]

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Will not see the first Lions become Scouts until next year. Lions started in 2018.

I stand corrected. None of the 15 (or more?) boys who joined this year were Lions. About 10 were crossovers from one AoL den.

Regarding "Family Scouting", esp. for pre-K and K ... When they were wee little, we took our kids camping regularly (much to Mrs. Q's chagrin). Babysitting cousins were paid in food and a weekend away from their parents! Even after adjusting for inflation, such an excursion was much less than the registration fee. One friend at church arranged a camping weekend with international families. Other organizations may do the same or similar. BSA is not going to crack that market share. In PA, they are running up against state parks who have excellent programs for families that age.

That said, there were some state parks with impertinent neighbors, and we hadn't gained the maturity to know that park rangers are there for those of us who like peace and quiet late in the evening.

[InquisitiveScouter]

32 minutes ago, qwazse said:

That said, there were some state parks with impertinent neighbors, and we hadn't gained the maturity to know that park rangers are there for those of us who like peace and quiet late in the evening.

Yeah, we just were camping in a PA State park two weekends ago.  Some organization had a father-daughter thing going on about two campsites down.  (Another Troop in between us.)  Friday night, they were hooting and hollering after quiet hours, so I politely asked them to quiet down.  They did for about 5 minutes, and then continued.  (Dads had alcohol, btw...) I called the camp office and left a voicemail.  They had no contact number for Ranger.  I put in my ear plugs, but that wasn't enough.  They finally went to bed about 2 AM.

Next morning, I went to camp office to inquire about a Ranger contact number.  The office said I should call 911 and ask dispatch to send a ranger out.  I questioned this, and they confirmed that is what they wanted done.  I smiled.

When we went back by their campsite, noticed the ground was littered with trash, and coolers and totes overturned.  Apparently, they did not know to secure all foodstuffs.  Bears had ripped into everything.  Schadenfreude.

After we finished our day's activities, we had a discussion with PLC about the situation with neighbors, and now bears who were most likely to come back that evening.  After a wonderful dinner, Dutch Oven dessert contest, and clean up, we packed up and went home.

If they brought alcohol into a State Park (against the law), there's no telling what else might happen.  Best to walk away from that kind of situation.

Edited September 20, 2022 by InquisitiveScouter

[Armymutt]

I think Lion parents fall into two categories and this can cause some stress.  The first group is the single or first child in Scouting.  This group can probably do with one meeting or outing a month, especially if the kid is getting plenty of socialization in school or the neighborhood.  The second group is the family with older youth in Scouting and the Lion is next in line.  They are already attending weekly meetings, so not having a Lion meeting is more of a stressor.  For me, I love Scouting, so it's a refresher rather than a stressor, for the most part.  I think the Lion program provides a good intro into activities away from home and it gives the little ones a sense of belonging, especially to people they don't see everyday.  

[PACAN]

When you realize the BSA started Lions for membership and money (every Lion has to pay the extra $25) and none of the decision makers have to execute a program for 5 year olds you will have your answer. 

[cmd]

Alcohol isn't allowed in state parks in PA? It never would have crossed my mind to look into that, even though I grew up there.  It's something that was done so often that I wouldn't have thought I needed to research it.

In NY it's legal and parents always look at us like we've lost our minds when we tell them that they won't be drinking on the campout.

[qwazse]

15 minutes ago, cmd said:

Alcohol isn't allowed in state parks in PA? It never would have crossed my mind to look into that, even though I grew up there.  It's something that was done so often that I wouldn't have thought I needed to research it.

In NY it's legal and parents always look at us like we've lost our minds when we tell them that they won't be drinking on the campout.

Yep, PA State Parks are supposedly dry. There are also quiet hours that supposedly begin earlier and end later than most summer camps …. https://www.dcnr.pa.gov/Recreation/WhatToDo/StayOvernight/RVandTentCampsites/Pages/default.aspx

Most of us however will look the other way if there’s nothing to hear.

They usually provide remote, primitive camping locations for scouts who are just about ready to play capture the flag at 9pm. 

[Eagle1993]

15 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Will not see the first Lions become Scouts until next year. Lions started in 2018.

We had Lions in 2016.  They started a pilot program for Packs that were willing to jump through some hoops.