How to deal with youth that are uncomfortable to approach Scoutmaster

[DuctTape]

If scouts and scouters are not following the Scout Law, and the associated behaviors are ignored then an additional code of conduct will just be another list of specific  behaviors which are repeated and tolerated by inaction.

IMO

Focus on behaviors and the damage to relationships, not a piece of paper.

[Mrjeff]

We went from grades and a code of conduct to bullying.   Reading, writing,  and arithmetic are academic and Scouting is far more then accademics and uses a different learning modality then most students get in school.  If you want to restrict something try using the phone, video games or television but not Scouting.  As far as a code of conduct, if those who are refusing to follow the basic rules of Scouting, they aren't going to follow an extra set of rules made up by some well meaning committee.  If they aren't following the Scouting rules then they are not Scouting.  In my opinion an extra mandated code of conduct is worthless.

[Mrjeff]

Also, heaven forbid, that the kids should tend to their own interpersonal relationships without adult interference.   They should never be allowed to take care of their own problems and should be permitted to voice their displeasure when offended.  Although that's not real life.  I know of one young Scout who was a "bully" and he enjoyed picking on everyone.  There was little adult intervention and one day Mr Bully picked on the wrong kid.  Mr Bully tried to hit Wrong Kid with a stick; Wrong Kid grabbed the stick, snatched it away then lifted Mr Bully off of his feet and "placed" Mr Bully onto the ground.  While Wrong Kid maintained physical contact with Mr Bully, Wrong Kid leaned over and placed his face near Mr Bully's face and exclaimed " don't you ever try to hit me with a stick again".  Wrong Kid then stood up and continued with his business.  Magically and immediately Mr Bully had a change in attitude as he came to the realization that his role as Mr Bully was less then successful and he quit picking on the other kids.  That was a long time ago, but it solved the problem.  Just sayin.

[Jmatt0613]

On 10/2/2022 at 12:35 AM, Mrjeff said:

We went from grades and a code of conduct to bullying.

It's the other way around. I came here to come up with ideas and possible solutions to help overcome scouts that are uncomfortable approaching the scoutmaster with the issue. I admit that I shouldn't have brought up the grading policy as it derailed my original question. In the moment I thought it might help to explain other things talked about at the meeting. 

 

On 10/2/2022 at 1:03 AM, Mrjeff said:

Also, heaven forbid, that the kids should tend to their own interpersonal relationships without adult interference.

I agree that the kids should work through their issues with their peers but it crossed that line a long time ago. There isn't any physical bullying but more verbal bullying than anything. There is a lot of putting others down for various issues, yelling at scouts that are answering too many questions then proceeding to the conversation in a different direction,  yelling at special needs scouts, and at some times yelling at everyone including adult leaders. All of these actions have been done by multiple scouts of various ages, ranks, gender, and troop position.

One scout(scout A) had done all of the aforementioned acts in front of adult leaders or their parents. There was a misunderstanding at our last summer camp. We were about to elect the new senior patrol leader but as the scoutmaster had come back later than we all thought it was the consensus among the adults to push it to the next night and have a little party beforehand. As it was just decided we told all scouts in the near area that this was the new plan and to tell the others of it as well. Some time passes by and almost everyone is hanging out in the pavilion that was provided to us when scout A and scout B come up from a cabin we were also provided. Scout A attempted to ask another person what was going but due to the noise, no one heard them so then Scout A proceeds to scream at everyone about its not fair that they were left out of voting in the SPL election. This caused some confusion as we didn't know that Scout A was unaware of the plan change since no one had seen them since coming back from dinner. We try to explain that the plans changed but Scout A wasn't listening to what we said and then Scout A proceeded to walk away angry and almost crying leaving everyone else very confused. The Scout A parent( Parent A) proceeded to discipline everyone there including the scoutmaster, a member of camp staff, the majority of the scouts, and other adult leaders including myself. Parent A said that Scout A was feeling left out when everyone was at the pavilion except them, that they had a bad day, and that we are bullying him by not allowing him to be with us. We made it clear that since this is an open area we can't police who is and isn't there and that if we had made Scout A feel any sort of detachment from the group we didn't mean to do. Parent A then proceeded to attempt to argue that not including anyone in SPL elections is unfair (Scout A was NOT eligible for SPL at all and wasn't close enough to finish within the next day) and I simply said back that we wouldn't Vote for the next SPL without everyone here BECAUSE that isn't fair and that we had changed the plan. That shut Parent A up who then proceeded to walk away and pout.

This is one of the stories of this scout from our summer camp week. Scout A had at least one major problem a day where it would be similar to the above. I might have gone a bit off topic but this is a clear example of the bullying in our troop. Something needs to change or else the troop will be forced to close due to lack of youth.

[DuctTape]

My first take on your latest post:

It appears (please correct me if I am mistaken) the SM and PLC are not leading the program? It appears parents are making decisions.

If the parents are ASMs, then they are to be following the direction of the SM. In their absence, a specific ASM should be the acting SM, and this person should be chosen beforehand by the SM. Other parents are "observers only" they should not be interacting with the scouts much at all. They should never be interferring with the program, which undermines the SM or the PLC.  Troop committee members are also just observers are not particpants in the program.

It appears that the adults in the troop need a reset to understand the specific roles of SM, ASM, troop committee and parent observers.

Also, specific training for all Unit positions including how to empower the Scouts to move the troop to Scout-Led.

IIRC, it was Barry who recommends training the parents. I agree with this too.

[qwazse]

@Jmatt0613, I hope the code of conduct that you propose passes muster. But, the important thing for you to communicate is that beyond oath and law, you shouldn’t need a code of conduct but scouts’ and scouters’ recent behavior betrays that need. Even if the committee doesn’t pass it, you want them to understand that you’re seeing courteous, kind, and cheerful being left behind in the trail. That’s not a recipe for growth.

[MattR]

@Jmatt0613, to answer your original question about encouraging scouts to talk to the SM, maybe the SM is part of the problem. You said the scouts don't really like the SM. If there's no trust between the scouts and SM then I wouldn't expect that many scouts will bring up problems with him.

Then there's a blur of bullying, bad behavior, the SM not listening to adults, swastikas on arms (!?), .... Any moral code, whether the Scout Law or the Bible, can be, how to say this kindly, superceded by people's emotions, biases and desires. Without humility it's just a lot of words.

I'm sure the SM is trying to do what he thinks is right. The same goes for the parents. I give you the most credit for recognizing a problem and asking for help.

But I don't have much of an answer for you. When I was an SM I knew I intimidated young scouts. I'm tall, have a low voice and am not shy of using it where needed. I didn't take unscout like behaviorvery well.

So, I spent a lot of time creating what I called silver bullets. Essentially it was good will so when things got bad we had a relationship to lean on to facilitate solving problems. I enjoyed laughing with the scouts, I asked lots of questions and really tried to listen to their struggles, whether it was perceived unfair elections, problems with other scouts or problems with parents. I tried to develop some trust. I also encouraged ASMs to do the same. If a scout found another adult easier to talk to I'd still hear about issues. I'm humble enough to realize my limits.

But you're not the SM. Maybe you can still help develop that trust.

[Mrjeff]

At the risk of being burned at the stake I will interject a couple of things.  Maybe there are just too many adults trying to do the SMs job; next, dad A may just focusing on his son and is blind to other problems that the boy is having, including behavior and respect;  contrary to current doctrin Scouting 8s not for everyone, there are rules and expectations and everything is not all about you.  There appears to be influences afoot that a Scout troop is not going to fix.  Three sons and a grandson in Scouting and I NEVER tolerated disrespect directed toward an adult, and that goes for everybody not just my boys.

[Jmatt0613]

On 10/5/2022 at 7:49 AM, DuctTape said:

It appears (please correct me if I am mistaken) the SM and PLC are not leading the program?

It appears parents are making decisions.

Most of the parents are also assistant scoutmasters. Even during the chaos, our troop is in the scoutmaster strives to keep it boy-led with adult and assistant scoutmaster assistance as needed. The scoutmaster rarely misses any major events due to our lack of adult help. There was also talk about the scoutmaster sticking to his listed duties, this will also help others stay in their specific positions. 

On 10/5/2022 at 9:12 AM, qwazse said:

you shouldn’t need a code of conduct but scouts’ and scouters’ recent behavior betrays that need.

Yes, I hoped there wouldn't be a need for something like this but there have been too many incidents that have caused the need to attempt to put a Code of Conduct in place. No matter the outcome I will respect the decision while still stating that this behavior needs to change.

 

On 10/5/2022 at 11:16 AM, MattR said:

But you're not the SM. Maybe you can still help develop that trust.

The scoutmaster in my opinion isn't very intimidating as he has made multiple attempts to create a closer bond with the scouts while keeping it safe and appropriate. The main reason the scouts don't like him is because of certain decisions he made and his refusal to explain the reasons and then go lie about events that never happened to the committee's face. No matter what I hope to make it clear to the scouts that if they are uncomfortable approaching the scoutmaster then they can approach one of the assistant scoutmasters if they need help with a problem like bullying

 

On 10/5/2022 at 12:45 PM, Mrjeff said:

dad A may just focusing on his son and is blind to other problems that the boy is having, including behavior and respect; 

Parent A tends to make excuses for their child and their behavior. Scout A is a part of the major family so some problems might be handled at home but what about the acts of bullying toward children who aren't in that family? As I said dealing with acts of bullying should be kept private to not humiliate the bully but also allowing there to be no consequences just lets the bully know they can get away with these actions. I agree that scouting isn't meant for everyone because of the moral things scouts teach. A bad person won't suddenly become a good person just because they join scouts they need to be willing to change and allow themselves room to grow and become a better person. Also, the lack of respect is another issue entirely and unfortunately isn't a major problem as it's only been scout A.

Now our next committee meeting is happening in the next few days and I'm quite nervous because m scared I won't have the courage to bring up the Code of Conduct after all and the fact that the meeting might be controlled by the same group as last time. They barely let anyone speak unless it was to support their statement. Is there anything I can do that allows me to have the opportunity to present the code of conduct and have the same courage to defend it while explaining how it helps solve some of the major issues? I will post an update after the committee meeting to let everyone know how it went. 

[Mrjeff]

Leave the idea of a code of conduct alone.  Tackel issues with the light of the Scout Law and Oath.  

[InquisitiveScouter]

Read the thread.  The code of conduct is the Scout Oath and Law.  The idea is to set expectations and consequences.  Then stick to them.

[qwazse]

@Jmatt0613, yep. your in the big leagues.  

Like I said earlier, don’t treat your proposal as an end in itself. Treat it as a way to say there’s a problem. This is an opportunity for you to listen to other scouters in your troop and get the idea mill going.

You’re scared because you think you have something important and you are uncertain if it will be accepted. In those situations I remove all doubt by assuming that my idea will be rejected outright. That way I have nothing to worry about.

Don’t expect your idea to pass instantly. Don’t take it personally. In fact, I always worry when someone buys into my ideas hook line and sinker. That usually means I’m stuck with a lot of work to get it done! But, if someone is willing to mull over what they like or not about it, that may mean that that person is willing to help me make it work.

 

[Jmatt0613]

Hello everyone! I have come up with an update but it's not that good. Unfortunately, I have decided to leave my current troop after some issues arose. This is a drama that has been brewing in the background since our summer camp.

I had a meeting with the new scoutmaster (NSM), Chartered organization rep (COR), and old scoutmaster(OSM) which was an intervention under the guise of a leadership meeting. (NOTE before this COR had not been present at troop functions for almost 1 year and OSM had only reappeared back in march) They essentially summed up the meeting into 3 things 1. I need to back away from the troop for some time to focus on myself and my future (they also agree to help and check in on me), 2. That I was not to attend ANY troop or committee meetings or ANY 2 deep leadership with the scouts until COR said it was ok too, and 3. They claim that it is to make sure my relationship with the scouts wouldn't be taken as me being a predator. I understood this and agreed with 1 and 3 but 2 is where I had a major problem because I had already agreed to help and be available to the new leadership and parents that came in.

I stayed away as much as I could unless the scouts asked for help (I always take 2 deep leadership seriously because one mistake could ruin my life) the meetings that I did go to COR and OSM were not there but NSM was but he never tried to talk to me about 2 and was actually grateful when I actually showed up. Then our September committee meeting happens where all three are there. (I received an email from the  Committee chair informing us that there would be a committee meeting and that anyone can attend) Nothing was said to me before or during the meeting but COR wanted to talk with me afterward. He reiterated 1,2, and 3 to me again and told me that he would call me to help me with something before the next week. Since I had not been asked to help with any meetings during September I decided to not attend meetings and not interact with any scouts. COR never called or even texted about helping me and then proceeded to take a vacation the last week of September and the first week of October. COR was set to return the day before the October Committee meeting it was intentionally scheduled that way.  

Two days before our October Committee meeting the Committee chair sent out an email reminding everyone of the meeting and was still an open invitation. As this thread showed I planned on attending to propose the Code of Conduct. I arrived a bit early way before any scouts or other adults showed up and just waited. When the SPL arrived I asked him about returning something that I had loaned him because I planned on almost quitting the troop and fully embracing ! 2, and 3 to the best of my ability. While doing this other scouts arrived and I got swarmed until the normal meeting opening which I stayed to watch with NSM. I was going to wait until the NSM was finished and walk with him to the committee meeting. Before that happened COR walked over and asked to talk with me so I followed him. Upon the talk beginning, he asked why I was there and that I  knew about 1, 2, and 3 to which I calmly explained that I was there for the committee meeting and what I had previously mentioned. He asked if I knew why he had told me to stay away and I just told him what 3 is. he agreed and asked if my mother knew about 1,2, and 3 and the real reason, to which I responded yes and said I was only there for the committee meeting. He then followed up with that if I attend another meeting of any kind he would have me removed in handcuffs. I simply asked why as I knew I had not broken any laws to which he responded "for what you did to those kids online I should have had you removed from the program a long time ago," (This is the exact quote and he didn't explain it at all. The reason is that I know is because immediately after I texted my mother a summary that included that line in full.) Cor then said I could stay for the committee meeting as I didn't have a ride there but then reiterated that if I come back again I will leave in handcuffs. During the entire committee meeting, I stayed silent, and as soon as it was over I went outside and ordered an Uber. As soon as I was home I emailed the NSM and committee chair that I am leaving the troop because I have become unwelcome by Cor and that if I attend another troop event I will be removed in handcuffs. I wished them the best of luck for the future and that I might not return again. 

My scouting journey has come to an end against my will and I'm quite sad about it ending this way with people I considered family. This is not the ending I thought of or hoped for at all but if I stay any longer I am risking my future for nothing. I hope those who have read this have a wonderful time with however long you have left in this amazing program. I might end up updating this if any major events happen in the future.

[InquisitiveScouter]

6 hours ago, Jmatt0613 said:

Hello everyone! I have come up with an update but it's not that good. Unfortunately, I have decided to leave my current troop after some issues arose. This is a drama that has been brewing in the background since our summer camp.

I had a meeting with the new scoutmaster (NSM), Chartered organization rep (COR), and old scoutmaster(OSM) which was an intervention under the guise of a leadership meeting. (NOTE before this COR had not been present at troop functions for almost 1 year and OSM had only reappeared back in march) They essentially summed up the meeting into 3 things 1. I need to back away from the troop for some time to focus on myself and my future (they also agree to help and check in on me), 2. That I was not to attend ANY troop or committee meetings or ANY 2 deep leadership with the scouts until COR said it was ok too, and 3. They claim that it is to make sure my relationship with the scouts wouldn't be taken as me being a predator. I understood this and agreed with 1 and 3 but 2 is where I had a major problem because I had already agreed to help and be available to the new leadership and parents that came in.

I stayed away as much as I could unless the scouts asked for help (I always take 2 deep leadership seriously because one mistake could ruin my life) the meetings that I did go to COR and OSM were not there but NSM was but he never tried to talk to me about 2 and was actually grateful when I actually showed up. Then our September committee meeting happens where all three are there. (I received an email from the  Committee chair informing us that there would be a committee meeting and that anyone can attend) Nothing was said to me before or during the meeting but COR wanted to talk with me afterward. He reiterated 1,2, and 3 to me again and told me that he would call me to help me with something before the next week. Since I had not been asked to help with any meetings during September I decided to not attend meetings and not interact with any scouts. COR never called or even texted about helping me and then proceeded to take a vacation the last week of September and the first week of October. COR was set to return the day before the October Committee meeting it was intentionally scheduled that way.  

Two days before our October Committee meeting the Committee chair sent out an email reminding everyone of the meeting and was still an open invitation. As this thread showed I planned on attending to propose the Code of Conduct. I arrived a bit early way before any scouts or other adults showed up and just waited. When the SPL arrived I asked him about returning something that I had loaned him because I planned on almost quitting the troop and fully embracing ! 2, and 3 to the best of my ability. While doing this other scouts arrived and I got swarmed until the normal meeting opening which I stayed to watch with NSM. I was going to wait until the NSM was finished and walk with him to the committee meeting. Before that happened COR walked over and asked to talk with me so I followed him. Upon the talk beginning, he asked why I was there and that I  knew about 1, 2, and 3 to which I calmly explained that I was there for the committee meeting and what I had previously mentioned. He asked if I knew why he had told me to stay away and I just told him what 3 is. he agreed and asked if my mother knew about 1,2, and 3 and the real reason, to which I responded yes and said I was only there for the committee meeting. He then followed up with that if I attend another meeting of any kind he would have me removed in handcuffs. I simply asked why as I knew I had not broken any laws to which he responded "for what you did to those kids online I should have had you removed from the program a long time ago," (This is the exact quote and he didn't explain it at all. The reason is that I know is because immediately after I texted my mother a summary that included that line in full.) Cor then said I could stay for the committee meeting as I didn't have a ride there but then reiterated that if I come back again I will leave in handcuffs. During the entire committee meeting, I stayed silent, and as soon as it was over I went outside and ordered an Uber. As soon as I was home I emailed the NSM and committee chair that I am leaving the troop because I have become unwelcome by Cor and that if I attend another troop event I will be removed in handcuffs. I wished them the best of luck for the future and that I might not return again. 

My scouting journey has come to an end against my will and I'm quite sad about it ending this way with people I considered family. This is not the ending I thought of or hoped for at all but if I stay any longer I am risking my future for nothing. I hope those who have read this have a wonderful time with however long you have left in this amazing program. I might end up updating this if any major events happen in the future.

OK, there is a lot to unpack there... and some new info which is disturbing.

I'm not gonna delve any deeper from a thousand miles away.  But I will offer the following:

1.  You are young.  Unfortunately, with a group of other adults (parents), your views are not going to carry much weight.  They are asking themselves : "What is this college kid doing here?  He should be off with his friends doing college-kid stuff."  So, you are probably viewed with some suspicion for hanging around instead of "letting go."  That's probably the origin of #1 and #3 above, but just a guess...  It's a way for them to have you not be there.

2. From your posts, I take it you are under 21.  BSA rules say "Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings."  So, from your posts above, "...I arrived a bit early way before any scouts or other adults showed up and just waited. When the SPL arrived I asked him about returning something that I had loaned him..." They probably took this as a violation (from #2 in your post). 

3.  Someone in charge now does not want you there.  So, go, before things get worse.  Best thing for you and the Troop, ultimately.  There are a million other things to do in Scouting.  Find some.  Does your college have an Alpha Phi Omega chapter?  (No, start one.) How about a local NESA Chapter.  How about OA? etc, etc etc.

4.  You were diving into a Code of Conduct for the Troop.  While the Scout Oath and Law applies to all, YOU actually have one to follow:  The Scouters Code of Conduct.

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/bsa-scouter-code-of-conduct/

Make sure you follow it, always, in your other Scouting adventures.

Happy Trails!

Edited October 10, 2022 by InquisitiveScouter

[fred8033]

@Jmatt0613 ... @InquisitiveScouter is exactly right.  This is not a winning battle for you.  The adults are treating you as unwelcome.  I don't see a recovery path.  ... DO NOT TAKE THIS AS A PERSONAL HIT AGAINST YOU.  Use this as a lesson on group dynamics.  They don't view you as an equal.  They are running the program for their kids and other under-age youth.  You are not viewed as an adult or a parent.  

Life is filled with transitions.  Don't be scared.  It is time to cut your ties to the troop.  Find somewhere else to spend your time.  Hopefully, the future has a scouting path.  BUT, it might also be outside scouting.  Your future can be good both inside and outside scouting.