Navybone Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 4 hours ago, qwazse said: An "unsupervised" older scout may have had the combination to the gun safe, known how to load a magazine, and how to fire the weapon. Or, he may not have known how to properly disarm the weapon, and the next youth could handle it, leading to the accidental discharge. I do not see how this is any better. To call this accidental is to ignore that this was, with what is available now, the result of poor, very poor leadership and management. There were deliberate steps that got the weapon and the ammunition into a space where this could happen. Intentional or not does not negate that this entire affair is the result of negligence. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malraux Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 Freak accidents happen, as when apparently healthy trees fall onto tents unexpectedly. But bending or breaking the standard BSA rules on firearms is different. We have those rules for a reason. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrjeff Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 Ok, let's keep guessing. Why was someone down range when the range was hot; was the range hot; what does "unsupervised" mean; why didn't someone or anyone shout "cease fire"; were there any coaches there; was there a range master there; was there a designated RSO; were the participants Boy Scouts, Venture Scouts or Explorers; who, when, and how was the rifle loaded; were safety blocks available and in use; did the RSO have any additional responsibilities? Just looking at these details, any of which COULD have prevented this tragedy, clearly demonstrates that due to the imperfections of the human, mistakes and ACCIDENTAL discharges are a possibility. Safety is one thing but supervising, managing or instructing at any event involving firearms, at any level, is something on an entirely different level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malraux Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 5 minutes ago, Mrjeff said: Ok, let's keep guessing. Why was someone down range when the range was hot; was the range hot; what does "unsupervised" mean; why didn't someone or anyone shout "cease fire"; were there any coaches there; was there a range master there; was there a designated RSO; were the participants Boy Scouts, Venture Scouts or Explorers; who, when, and how was the rifle loaded; were safety blocks available and in use; did the RSO have any additional responsibilities? Just looking at these details, any of which COULD have prevented this tragedy, clearly demonstrates that due to the imperfections of the human, mistakes and ACCIDENTAL discharges are a possibility. Safety is one thing but supervising, managing or instructing at any event involving firearms, at any level, is something on an entirely different level. Running a shooting range absent an RSO and in violation of BSA policy reflects choices beyond just accidental. We agree to follow the GTSS as leaders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrjeff Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 Ok, so answer the questions with definitive answers. No one said there was no RSO, but one RSO can't do everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navybone Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 1 hour ago, Mrjeff said: Ok, so answer the questions with definitive answers. No one said there was no RSO, but one RSO can't do everything. I disagree - if we accept that the RSO cannot provide for range safety and range management, then Boy Scouts has no business running a shooting range. Obviously we do not have all the answer, but the idea or concept that running a safe range is hard and good enough is fine (my summary of your comments) is flat our wrong. If the range cannot be run safely, it should be run. Full stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrjeff Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 I'm not sure if the duties and responsibilities of individuals administering any range are clear. You keep adding to what I said. Never said good enough, the Range Safety Officer has one job and one job only, and I would encourage you to research that, and it's not management. I believe that until someone has the chance to function as a real range master and experiences all of the moving parts, they really dont...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle1993 Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 1 hour ago, Navybone said: I disagree - if we accept that the RSO cannot provide for range safety and range management, then Boy Scouts has no business running a shooting range. Obviously we do not have all the answer, but the idea or concept that running a safe range is hard and good enough is fine (my summary of your comments) is flat our wrong. If the range cannot be run safely, it should be run. Full stop. An RSO AND an instructor is required for every 8 scouts. I struggle to see how this could happen with this ratio in place. It sounds like there was lack of oversight of the range; however, it could happen if a scout purposely ignored orders ... so we need to know a bit more before casting final judgement. If the adults broke BSA rules, they should be held civilly liable and pay. They should also be removed from BSA. If the adults broke the law, they should be held criminally liable. If we want shooting sports to remain in BSA, we need the leaders to follow the rules. The fastest way to end shooting sports is to have adults break the rules. Terrible what happened to these scouts. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldscout448 Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 4 hours ago, Mrjeff said: Ok, so answer the questions with definitive answers. No one said there was no RSO, but one RSO can't do everything. not to pile on here, but if the number of shooters or firearms is to great to monitor then it's the RSO's obligation to reduce it to a manageable level. RSOing was the most stressful job I ever had at camp. Lifeguard was easy by comparison. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InquisitiveScouter Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 (edited) For those interested... BSA National Shooting Sports Manual https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/ShootingSportsManual.pdf Edited October 19, 2022 by InquisitiveScouter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RememberSchiff Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 Hearing update: Circuit Court Judge Henry Nakamoto ruled in favor of the estate of Manuel Carvalho for an independent investigation. citing the time constraints for the family to file a civil lawsuit and other reasons. Police and autopsy reports, body camera videos, and witness statements are among the evidence that must be provided by Oct. 26. The county attorneys objected. “The parents of this child are also witnesses to this particular case. They have been interviewed as witnesses,” said Deputy Corporation Counsel Sylvia Wan. “If they were to review them and review the other evidence... it would naturally taint potential testimony.” The state Attorney General’s office could take over or assign another agency to review for possible criminal charges, as Hawaii County Prosecutor's Office staff and their family members were at the event. Source: https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2022/10/20/court-orders-police-turn-over-records-related-accidental-shooting-death-boy-scout/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjohns2 Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 22 hours ago, Mrjeff said: ACCIDENTAL discharges are a possibility As someone who was ready to cite your credentials, I still find it interesting you continue choose the word accidental. Here is a good article that covers the topic. https://www.nrafamily.org/content/how-to-avoid-negligent-discharges-2/ 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrjeff Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 1 hour ago, mrjohns2 said: As someone who was ready to cite your credentials, I still find it interesting you continue choose the word accidental. Here is a good article that covers the topic. https://www.nrafamily.org/content/how-to-avoid-negligent-discharges-2/ I'm not sure if the duties and responsibilities of individuals administering any range are clear. You keep adding to what I said. Never said good enough, the Range Safety Officer has one job and one job only, and I would encourage you to research that, and it's not management. I believe that until someone has the chance to function as a real range master and experiences all of the moving parts, they really dont...... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrjeff Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 If you read carefully I said that I wasn't going to state my creds . 14 years Marine Corps, primary marksmanship instructor, coach, rso and rangemaster, instructed m-16, shotgun and pistol, expert rifle and pistol and hand grenade. 14 years in law enforcement, master marksman pistol,, state certified firearms instructor for pistol, rifle,, shotgun and automatic weapons, rangemaster, instructor, coach, safety officer. Boy Scouts, shotgun, rifle, and handgun instructor. Range Master, RSO, coach, instructor. But hey, you are correct🤪 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrjeff Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 You asked, or at least enquired so I provided! Safety, responsibility, duties and specific roles and duties? Yea, I do have a clue, and it was still an accidental discharge. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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