Accidental shooting at Aloha Council camp news

[FireStone]

4 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

My Heavens!  This was a tragic accident, thats all.  No one took a rifle and deliberately gunned down a young man. 

It wasn't a murder but that doesn't mean that nothing criminal took place. Negligence can be criminal.

It doesn't sound like anything criminal happened, but any further investigation would hopefully confirm the police findings of an accidental discharge.

[MikeS72]

17 minutes ago, FireStone said:

It wasn't a murder but that doesn't mean that nothing criminal took place. Negligence can be criminal.

It doesn't sound like anything criminal happened, but any further investigation would hopefully confirm the police findings of an accidental discharge.

According to the article in the Hawaii Tribune-Herald any potential charges look to be misdemeanors.

I know that there are times when a RSO might show scouts guns that they would not actually fire on the range, just to make them familiar with them, but I am surprised that there would have been a loaded AK-47 present.  Nothing that we have seen so far indicates whether this was under the supervision of a RSO or if the troop was doing this event on their own.

As @Mrjeffstated, I am sure there was no ill intent here.  That aside however, a child was killed and somewhere along the line something was done that did not comport with range safety procedures.  

[mrjohns2]

13 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

But still an accident. 

You must have never worked in safety. This was an incident with multiple causes that could and should have been prevented. Firearms of a basic quality never “go off on accident”. Triggers are pulled, muzzle control is not done, and there are tragic results. Not an accident by any means. 

[RememberSchiff]

Ahead of Wed hearing, the Hawaii County Prosecutor’s Office has declared a conflict of interest in the criminal investigation.

The Prosecutor’s Office confirms they notified the state Attorney General’s office last week that staff and their family members were at the rifle range the day of the accidental shooting of Manuel Carvalho and are considered witnesses.

The state Attorney General’s office will now have to decide if they will keep the criminal investigation or send it to another county agency for review.

More at source:

https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2022/10/18/criminal-investigation-into-deadly-shooting-big-island-boy-scouts-camp-hits-roadblock/

[qwazse]

20 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

… but I am surprised that there would have been a loaded AK-47 present. …

I don’t see anything particularly surprising about an AK-47.

Any firearm left loaded is problematic.

[malraux]

4 minutes ago, qwazse said:

I don’t see anything particularly surprising about an AK-47.

Any firearm left loaded is problematic.

My concern would be that the shooting sports rules for Scouts BSA are supposed to be limited to .22 bolt actions, as I understand them. And magazines removed from weapons when not in use. They don't mention what the rifle in question was chambered in, but even if it were chambered for a 22lr, its still not bolt action. That said, I'm not sure I trust news media reporting of court documents.

[qwazse]

2 hours ago, malraux said:

My concern would be that the shooting sports rules for Scouts BSA are supposed to be limited to .22 bolt actions, as I understand them. And magazines removed from weapons when not in use. They don't mention what the rifle in question was chambered in, but even if it were chambered for a 22lr, its still not bolt action. That said, I'm not sure I trust news media reporting of court documents.

@malraux, it's not clear to me what the event was. Larger bores are permitted for older scouts and venturers.  An older scout or adult may have been using the rifle when the youth was downrange.

IMHO the make of the firearm is immaterial. The fundamental question is how a 12 year old scout found himself in the line of fire. Maybe being able to understand this is most pressing to me because 11-12 year olds are now the majority of our troop. Keeping them out of harms way is a formidable challenge.

Once a year, we hold a demonstration of a variety of firearms that a couple of our troop's scouters (also RSO's) have collected. But, every model is displayed with empty chambers/clips. And still we go over the safety lecture before the scouts handle the weapons. (The whole point is to teach scouts to identify firearms and handle them safely.)

[Mrjeff]

15 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

You must have never worked in safety. This was an incident with multiple causes that could and should have been prevented. Firearms of a basic quality never “go off on accident”. Triggers are pulled, muzzle control is not done, and there are tragic results. Not an accident by any means. 

 

[Mrjeff]

Well if it wasn't an accident was it intentional?  This was an accidental discharge, short and simple.  Again, I am not going to compare credentials,  but I have been around the shooten game.

[mrjohns2]

55 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

This was an accidental discharge, short and simple. 

We’ll have to disagree. It was a negligent discharge. Someone pulled the trigger. 

[Mrjeff]

Yes we will.  I guess when someone crashes their car or cuts their hand, or even stubbs their toe its a negligent and not an accident.  There is always someone to blame for everything, I guess?

[mrjohns2]

17 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

There is always someone to blame for everything, I guess?

Someone’s actions, inactions, etc. Again,  having a background in safety management, makes this clear. There are multiple causes, but even car “accidents” didn’t “just happen”. There are causes.
 

Every injury and illness could and should have been prevented.

Also, safety can be managed. “Accidents just happening” implies they can’t be prevented. They can and should be.

 

[Navybone]

7 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

Yes we will.  I guess when someone crashes their car or cuts their hand, or even stubbs their toe its a negligent and not an accident.  There is always someone to blame for everything, I guess?

"Carvalho was shot when another boy, who police said was unsupervised, picked up a loaded AK-47 semi automatic rifle at the range. When the boy set the gun back down, it went off and the bullet struck Carvalho in the head."

A loaded AK-47 type weapon was left where it could be used in an unsafe manner.  The result was the death of an individual.  That is not an accidental discharge.  Negligence occurred when that weapon, in that condition, was able to be handled but someone who used it in an unsafe manner which resulted in someone being shot.  

If the proper controls had been maintained on the rifle, there would not have been any issue.  The NRAs own safety rules are not followed, rules which you can positively say are written in blood. 

And yes, crashing your car can be negligence, like if you are trying to text while driving and hit another car.

 

 

 

[qwazse]

8 minutes ago, Navybone said:

"Carvalho was shot when another boy, who police said was unsupervised, picked up a loaded AK-47 semi automatic rifle at the range. When the boy set the gun back down, it went off and the bullet struck Carvalho in the head." ...

Thanks for getting the quote. There are two tragedies. The victim and his family, and the youth who has to live with his decision to handle a weapon, the net effect being another boy's death.

I agree that an adult leaving a weapon armed would be negligence. But, lacking proceedings, we are only speculating on the sequence of events. We aren't told who armed the weapon. An "unsupervised" older scout may have had the combination to the gun safe, known how to load a magazine, and how to fire the weapon. Or, he may not have known how to properly disarm the weapon, and the next youth could handle it, leading to the accidental discharge.

The paths to tragedy are many. For us to apply what happened here so that we can forestall mahem in the future, we need to know every point of failure. If the investigation could assign less punitive fault, we might have the facts sooner and all be able to more readily proceed into the future.

 

[mrjohns2]

33 minutes ago, qwazse said:

The paths to tragedy are many. For us to apply what happened here so that we can forestall mahem in the future, we need to know every point of failure. If the investigation could assign less punitive fault, we might have the facts sooner and all be able to more readily proceed into the future.

Agreed. Incidents like this one are rooted in many causes. If there were often only one cause, we would have more incidents.