MikeS72 Posted September 21, 2022 Share Posted September 21, 2022 2 hours ago, fred8033 said: how many scouts were present? Three adults sounds like minimum to open a shooting range for a troop shoot at the camp. If the troop brought 20 to 30 scouts and the range had 8 to 10 shooting spots, then having 18 guns could be reasonable. Spares. Not sure which are shooting well or which sights were well aligned. One of many question I would have based on this report would be whether the Aloha Council provided a NCAP trained and certified Range Master for the event, or did the troop reserve a site at the council camp and bring their own guns. I know that in the case of my council we can set up a shooting activity but only under the direction of trained and certified personnel, usually a member of the council shooting sport staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RememberSchiff Posted September 21, 2022 Share Posted September 21, 2022 38 minutes ago, yknot said: If a child is dead -- no matter where -- when supposedly responsible adults were present I sure hope there would be a lot of charges. I have to say I am not finding that the direction this conversation is taking to be worthy of scouting. Yes. I will wait to hear from Prosecutor regarding the exact charge if any regarding the accidental death. Hawaii has one of the lowest number of firearm deaths compared to other states, but a couple of years ago an ATF agent John Bost was accidentally killed by a rifle discharge at the Kihei Police Station. I found no prosecution regarding that case. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred8033 Posted September 21, 2022 Share Posted September 21, 2022 1 hour ago, yknot said: If a child is dead -- no matter where -- when supposedly responsible adults were present I sure hope there would be a lot of charges. I have to say I am not finding that the direction this conversation is taking to be worthy of scouting. Don't judge. It's not scout like either. ... It's a tragedy. ... We're trying to understand what happened. ... Also be careful, responsible adults are not automatically criminals. ... I suspect real negligence happened here. But, we don't know that yet as the news article has not provided any meaningful details. No matter what, it's a tragedy for all involved. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elitts Posted September 21, 2022 Share Posted September 21, 2022 4 hours ago, yknot said: If a child is dead -- no matter where -- when supposedly responsible adults were present I sure hope there would be a lot of charges. I have to say I am not finding that the direction this conversation is taking to be worthy of scouting. If separate people committed distinct crimes, I don't have any problem with multiple charges. However what commonly happens is you have DAs stacking up multiple charges for the same offense for (usually) sole purpose of essentially extorting the defendant into accepting a plea deal. (or sometimes so that they can advertise to the public their "tough on crime" stance for elections) In a hypothetical case like this, lets say the most serious possible charge is "Negligence with a firearm leading to death". The prosecutor then charges the defendant with: Conspiracy to commit a crime (for planning the events that lead to the accidental death) Negligent handling of a firearm; Negligent handling of a firearm leading to serious injury; Negligent handling of a firearm leading to death; Use of a computer in the commission of a felony (for sending an email to a fellow scouter to discuss the plans for the event that lead to the accidental death) Now, US law says basically that you can only be charged with multiple crimes if the alleged criminal actions are distinct and separate. So the DA will use a ridiculous argument like, the first charge covers the planning of the shooting event; the second charges covers the time the event began until that youth picked up the gun; the third charge covers from the picking up of the gun until the scout was injured and the fourth charge covers from when the scout was injured until he was actually dead. Of course, if this defendant goes to trial, the most likely result is their attorney will get at least 2 if not 3 or 4 of these thrown out after making arguments. But what the DA is going to argue is: I'll dismiss everything but the most serious charge if you plead guilty and waive a trial. But if you don't plead guilty, I'm going to pursue them all and even if the judge dismisses them in the end, it's going to cost you thousands of dollars for an attorney to argue the case." I don't have a problem with a fair punishment, though it's hard to know what's fair without knowing what kind of negligence we are talking about. I just object to warping the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred8033 Posted September 21, 2022 Share Posted September 21, 2022 (edited) 29 minutes ago, elitts said: If separate people committed distinct crimes, I don't have any problem with multiple charges. However what commonly happens is you have DAs stacking up multiple charges for the same offense for (usually) sole purpose of essentially extorting the defendant into accepting a plea deal. (or sometimes so that they can advertise to the public their "tough on crime" stance for elections) ... I don't have a problem with a fair punishment, though it's hard to know what's fair without knowing what kind of negligence we are talking about. I just object to warping the system. #1 ... not only extorting defendants ... it biases juries. "Beyond a reasonable doubt" is to convict on a single charge; but situations are rarely clear cut. A jury can feel good about their decision if they feel they proportionately convict. ... Thinking being we're not really sure if the accused is really guilty. So, let's convict on one of five of the charges. That way the decision to not convict on the 4 of 5 reflects the doubt and feels like a fair decision. In addition, juries think he must be guilty of one of these. Let's choose the closest match. ... Even worse, these situations are ugly. It's hard for a jury to see an ugly situation and not convict on any of multiple charges. #2 Fair punishment is always hard to decide. Even harder deciding on fair without having a single fact. Edited September 21, 2022 by fred8033 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yknot Posted September 21, 2022 Share Posted September 21, 2022 As far as I'm concerned, the hole is getting deeper. There's a difference between sadly wondering what could have happened vs. conjecturing that charges are overblown due to bias. It happened. It was about as bad as it can get because a child is dead. Let's leave it at that for now. Anything more seems inappropriate for a site and an organization that is about protecting kids. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjohns2 Posted September 21, 2022 Share Posted September 21, 2022 6 hours ago, MikeS72 said: One of many question I would have based on this report would be whether the Aloha Council provided a NCAP trained and certified Range Master for the event, or did the troop reserve a site at the council camp and bring their own guns. Some troops (ours) has an NCS / NRA certified rifle instructor and 2 other certified RSOs. So, we could do a troop shoot. We have one planned for next year. Not many can meet this threshold. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred8033 Posted September 21, 2022 Share Posted September 21, 2022 32 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said: Some troops (ours) has an NCS / NRA certified rifle instructor and 2 other certified RSOs. So, we could do a troop shoot. We have one planned for next year. Not many can meet this threshold. Our troop too. I don't think it's that unusual in a good sized troop. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrjeff Posted September 24, 2022 Share Posted September 24, 2022 Wow, there seems to be a lot of premature judging going on. Again, I am not arguing my credentials or experience but I have spent some time on the ole shooten range. It doesn't matter if it's a Marine Corps range, a law enforcement range, a private range or a Scout Camp range, eventually there will be an accidental discharge, plain and simple. Most aren't as serious as this, but they do happen. I will reserve judgment and blame until I get to hear the rest of the story. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elitts Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 On 9/21/2022 at 3:55 PM, yknot said: As far as I'm concerned, the hole is getting deeper. There's a difference between sadly wondering what could have happened vs. conjecturing that charges are overblown due to bias. It happened. It was about as bad as it can get because a child is dead. Let's leave it at that for now. Anything more seems inappropriate for a site and an organization that is about protecting kids. You need to read more carefully, Fred didn't say "charges may be overblown due to bias", he said that "charge stacking" can result in biasing the jury once a trial actually takes place; and it's not his idea it's a fairly well studied phenomenon. https://harvardcrcl.org/use-the-rules-of-criminal-procedure-to-limit-prosecutors-power/ And a civil discussion regarding a tragic situation at a Camp, including whether or not a particular response is overblown, seems entirely within the purview of a site like this; particularly since neither the site nor the BSA is "about protecting kids" they are both about serving a top-notch program to kids as safely as possible (given the inherent risks of the programming). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yknot Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 44 minutes ago, elitts said: You need to read more carefully, Fred didn't say "charges may be overblown due to bias", he said that "charge stacking" can result in biasing the jury once a trial actually takes place; and it's not his idea it's a fairly well studied phenomenon. https://harvardcrcl.org/use-the-rules-of-criminal-procedure-to-limit-prosecutors-power/ And a civil discussion regarding a tragic situation at a Camp, including whether or not a particular response is overblown, seems entirely within the purview of a site like this; particularly since neither the site nor the BSA is "about protecting kids" they are both about serving a top-notch program to kids as safely as possible (given the inherent risks of the programming). I read it very carefully. Fred's a sweet guy, but that discussion was tunneling. Glad it stopped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred8033 Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 1 hour ago, elitts said: https://harvardcrcl.org/use-the-rules-of-criminal-procedure-to-limit-prosecutors-power/ Well written article. Similar articles (won't list now) on the poor press coverage of such incidents. The press really coverage really added little. 57 minutes ago, yknot said: I read it very carefully. Fred's a sweet guy, but that discussion was tunneling. Glad it stopped. It stopped because no one likes unjustly being accused of being mean. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RememberSchiff Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 (edited) Update Sunday Oct 16,2022: Court documents filed on behalf of the estate of the 11-year-old Boy Scout who was killed Aug. 28 when a firearm accidentally was discharged said the gun was an “AK-47 semi-automatic assault rifle.” Remainder of article is behind a paywall. Source: https://www.hawaiitribune-herald.com/2022/10/16/hawaii-news/estate-family-seek-answers-in-killing-of-boy-scout/ Edited October 16, 2022 by RememberSchiff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeS72 Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 12 hours ago, RememberSchiff said: Update Sunday Oct 16,2022: Court documents filed on behalf of the estate of the 11-year-old Boy Scout who was killed Aug. 28 when a firearm accidentally was discharged said the gun was an “AK-47 semi-automatic assault rifle.” Remainder of article is behind a paywall. Source: https://www.hawaiitribune-herald.com/2022/10/16/hawaii-news/estate-family-seek-answers-in-killing-of-boy-scout/ The article is available to read by creating a free account. The bulk of the information concerns the family filing court papers for pretty much everything related to the investigation, in preparation for a wrongful death suit against the BSA, the Aloha Council, and "those who may be criminally charged". The police department has filed filed an objection to the subpoenas, due in part to the ongoing criminal investigation. There is a court hearing scheduled for Wednesday morning. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrjeff Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 My Heavens! This was a tragic accident, thats all. No one took a rifle and deliberately gunned down a young man. This activity was conducted for the enjoyment of the members of a Scout Troop. I would think that everyone out there feels terrible about the incident and their lives will never be the same. Charges, responsibility, fault, who was wrong, what could have been done? These make fine discussion points but I would encourage everyone to remember that the players are part of the Scouting family, and a fatal accident could happen at any time. Very sad, very tragic, closely examined...yes yes yes. But still an accident. My thoughts and prayers go out to everyone involved😔 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now