Is there or is there not a uniform standard in Scouts BSA?

[HashTagScouts]

52 minutes ago, curious_scouter said:

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33066/33066_Official_Policy_WEB.pdf

Official policy even states wearing the uniform is not mandatory and to "promote the wearing of the correct complete uniform on all suitable occasions."

I think this is intentional and works.  At least in our troop we expect for meetings shirts, jeans, or scout pants/shorts.  For Court of Honor and Board of Review full uniform to the extent you own (even BoR rules state something about only having to wear the parts you own).  Etc.  Our troop has policies on what to wear when, the Scouts follow it, we have no issue.

There is no official uniform policy demanding full dress uniform every week at a scout meeting.  Much is left to the unit, I believe this is by design. 

My sons unit allowed any type of green pants/shorts, so if the parent bought a pair of "no-name" or designer name pair of dark green pants, those were perfectly fine. They did not require the actual BSA pants at $50. With Cubs, being navy blue as the color, I would never ask a parent to spend the money for the official shorts, I'd tell them to go to Walmart and buy the $15 navy blue cargo shorts.

[InquisitiveScouter]

32 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

So what happens if someone shows up at a BOR wearing swim trunks, flowers shirt, and flip Flops?  Do we have the BOR; try to figure out the reason for this attire; send them home to change; or cancel the BOR.  Perhaps we try to find out why;  well, they are on the way to the beach and just stopped off to have their BOR.  We can justify or legitimize anything.  Most people shy away from unpleasantness and take the path of least resistance.   If we just say it's OK and overlook things I won't make waves.  If a standard is established then meet the standard.   If the standard is ignored then don't set the standard.   

If you know the Scout owns a uniform, then you can hold the Scout to the standard.  The key here is, do not let owning a uniform be a barrier to participation.  But, if they have one, you can expect the Scout to wear it.  Also, establish that expectation up front in your Troop SOP's (or whatever you have.)   If you have established that expectation (I recommend in writing) and the Scout shows up dressed otherwise, then ask them why.   Then (as long as the Scout is "clean and neat in appearance and dressed appropriately) (how's that for a subjective assessment??) the BOR can make a judgment "according to the Scout's means"  This standard must apply to all within the Troop.

A BOR CAN reject a Scout due to uniforming "...as long as they are dressed to the above description."  Swim trunks and flip flops would be out.

G2A:

8.0.0.4 Wearing the Uniform—or Neat in Appearance It is preferred a Scout be in full field uniform for any board of review. As much of the uniform as the Scout owns should be worn, and it should be as correct as possible, with the badges worn properly. It may be the uniform as typically worn by the Scout’s troop, crew, or ship. If wearing all or part of the uniform is impractical for whatever reason, the candidate should be clean and neat in appearance and dressed appropriately, according to the Scout’s means, for the milestone marked by the occasion. Regardless of unit, district, or council expectations or rules, boards of review shall not reject candidates solely for reasons related to uniforming or attire, as long as they are dressed to the above description. Candidates shall not be required to purchase uniforming or clothing to participate in a board of review

Edited August 8, 2022 by InquisitiveScouter

[Mrjeff]

This is starting to go sideways.  So, let's be specific,  When I started this discussion I was talking about a national event, that is inherently expensive.  If someone is attending this type of an event, I'm pretty sure they have a uniform.  At this event there was a uniform standard that was established, so, if you are going to pay the fees and attend this event, abide by the standard.   Your other choice is to not attend so you are no longer committed to following the rules. This has nothing to do with individual units, consessions, or those who can't afford to purchase uniforms.  My good wife and I have purchased many uniforms at their exorbitant prices and provided them to the kids who needed them.  Unfortunately, whether we believe it or not, Scouting is in trouble and the big push for membership is obvious.  By allowing members to play dress up and appear in public representing the Scouts is counter productive and embarrassing for other members.  This is no way to grow membership unless you're recruiting for a circus.  If you want to attend, follow the rules or stay home.  If a few attend and don't follow the rules why should anyone else follow the rules?  If the rules aren't followed,  do away with the rules.  What other rules don't need to be followed like YPT, smoking and alcohol use, or horror of all horrors an adult trading patches with a youth? If the suit is the standard then wear the suit.  If not, don't inact the standard 

[Navybone]

2 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

If we just say it's OK and overlook things I won't make waves.  If a standard is established then meet the standard.   If the standard is ignored then don't set the standard.   

But Curious Scouter and Qwase just stated the standard, and the standard is that while desired and should be encouraged, uniforms are not mandatory. 

What is the goal here for youth in scouts?  Is it about the uniform, or is that one of the tools and techniques to develop and identify scouts? The mission is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. 

[curious_scouter]

 

Just now, Navybone said:

But Curious Scouter and Qwase just stated the standard, and the standard is that while desired and should be encouraged, uniforms are not mandatory.

 

I was typing something almost identical to this So I will just quote and add:

Avoid assumptions as well.  Just because a Scout is at an "expensive event" does not mean they paid to be there.  There are plenty of Camperships, Sponsorships, Volunteer chances to attend these larger spendy events with no or low cost.  This does not mean that Scout and their family have the means to be fully kitted for whatever reason.

[Navybone]

23 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

What other rules don't need to be followed like YPT, smoking and alcohol use, or horror of all horrors an adult trading patches with a youth?

That is quite a jump when you say allowing someone not to wear the official uniform pants means that YPT or smoking rules are optional also.  One is for the safety of the youth and one is the present a unformed appearance for BSA scouts but actually little bearing on the ability to safely meet the mission of scouting. 

This is not the military.  Lets not pretend it is and approach it the same way.

[MattR]

"Is there or is there not a uniform standard in Scouts BSA?"

Yes, there is. But that question isn't very helpful. A better question might be "what should the response be when a scout doesn't meet the uniform standard." As usual in scouts the answer often depends on why the scout isn't doing what is hoped for.

I once had a scout wear intensely bright green pants to a meeting because someone complained that the green pants he previously wore were not "green enough." I suspect the tutu scout was also trying to make a point. While some broken rules require a ton of bricks, the uniform, whether tutu or neon green, is better served with a quizzical look and a conversation.

I think the hardest part is being prepared for scouts that want to push boundaries or buttons. But that's on the adults, not the scouts.

By the way, the scout wearing the neon pants turned out to be an outstanding SPL.

 

[Eagledad]

34 minutes ago, MattR said:

I think the hardest part is being prepared for scouts that want to push boundaries or buttons. But that's on the adults, not the scouts.

By the way, the scout wearing the neon pants turned out to be an outstanding SPL.

 

I agree. But I did not dictate any expectations of how scouts wear the uniform in our troop. I did give the PLC the expectation of making right decisions. The handbook tells the scouts how to wear the uniform, so they didn’t need the adults help. But, the question came up now and then if they were making a good decision on how they wore their uniform. I did have some really good discussions on the subject with the PLC. If the adults can’t justify the uniform in the big picture of developing good character, then the uniform will always be a problem because youth don’t naturally relate dress code to character.

Our PLC was responsible for the scouts using the 8 methods. In fact, each PL set goals for each method to measure their performance. Adults had nothing to do with their goals. And, I would say the uniform was typically one of the most challenging methods to improve. The thing is that each scout is going through personal challenges in life that sometimes confuse the importance of a proper uniform, as well as making good decisions. While a scout likely never heard me question their uniform, they had heard me mention right and wrong decisions several times.

If I had to guess how many scouts made correct uniform decisions on a typical meeting or campout, I would guess 50%.

While we adults didn’t usually dictate a policy that the scouts already had in their handbooks, we did enforce wearing the uniform while traveling. We found that 50 boys running around a convenance store grabbing junk food during a fuel stop made store employees nervous. The uniform identified the adults who were responsible for them, which made the employees much more comfortable.

Barry

[InquisitiveScouter]

I've had enough of these conversations with adults who are not adhering to uniform standards, that I really do not go after youth much anymore.

The conversation kind of goes like this...

http://www.scoutsforequality.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/isa_composite_320.jpg

"Oh, that's a different patch.  What does that mean?"

"It's my knot showing support for LGBTQIA+."

"Is that an official BSA knot?"

"No, I just like to wear it."

"Did you know that was against BSA's uniform policy?"

"Yeah, I just like to wear it."

"So, what does it mean to you that "A Scout is Obedient"?

Usually the conversation ends there.  People know they are wrong, but their sense of personal expression carries more authority than their sense of integrity in adhering to established standards.

You cannot convince people with anything other than setting the correct example, and pointing out the error.

If adults will not adhere to standards, we have no ground to stand on to require youth to do so.

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by InquisitiveScouter

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, Navybone said:

That is quite a jump when you say allowing someone not to wear the official uniform pants means that YPT or smoking rules are optional also.  One is for the safety of the youth and one is the present a unformed appearance for BSA scouts but actually little bearing on the ability to safely meet the mission of scouting. 

This is not the military.  Lets not pretend it is and approach it the same way.

It’s funny to me how adults set rules to keep from admitting a foul. A number of years back the mother of a high school student put a butter knife in her sons lunch to spread the peanut butter she included on his crackers. When a teacher saw the butter knife, the student was kicked out of school for breaking zero tolerance knife policy. As you said, the rule is for safety and the butter knife had little bearing on the mission of safety. But, nobody was willing to bend.

I learned hypocrisy is by far the greatest violation adults make to youth as the youth grow in learning to make sound judgments and decisions. We adults have experience of life and use that leverage to never apologize for our pride and fickleness.

Barry

[MikeS72]

6 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

I don't understand why its so hard to follow the rules or deal with the consequences.  If the rule is wear the suit then wear the suit otherwise don't make up the rule.  

This is where we differ in addressing uniform issues.  The uniform is one of the methods of scouting, it is not one of the aims.  There is no rule stating that any scout must have a uniform in order to participate in any event.  

 

5 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

So what happens if someone shows up at a BOR wearing swim trunks, flowers shirt, and flip Flops?  Do we have the BOR; try to figure out the reason for this attire; send them home to change; or cancel the BOR.

We have the BoR.  While it is recommended that a scout wear the uniform to a BoR, or at least as much of it as he/she owns, a scout cannot and should not be denied if they are unable to obtain a uniform.

As I stated earlier in this thread my scout and I are always in complete uniform for all activities.  I can afford multiple uniforms and have no problem wearing a different complete one that is specific to the position I am representing at the time.  Not everyone can do that, and as someone else mention earlier today the 'you can find them in thrift stores' thing is not always true.  I will repeat what I said a couple of days ago:  the uniform itself is not nearly as important as the person inside the uniform (or the jeans and t-shirt if that is all they can manage).

[MikeS72]

3 hours ago, curious_scouter said:

 

 

I was typing something almost identical to this So I will just quote and add:

Avoid assumptions as well.  Just because a Scout is at an "expensive event" does not mean they paid to be there.  There are plenty of Camperships, Sponsorships, Volunteer chances to attend these larger spendy events with no or low cost.  This does not mean that Scout and their family have the means to be fully kitted for whatever reason.

Thank you.  I was at said national event and several members of our contingent were able to attend due to said lodge scholarships.

[MikeS72]

2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Oh, that's a different patch.  What does that mean?"

"It's my knot showing support for LGBTQIA+."

"Is that an official BSA knot?"

"No, I just like to wear it."

"Did you know that was against BSA's uniform policy?"

"Yeah, I just like to wear it."

"So, what does it mean to you that "A Scout is Obedient"?

I have also seen scouters wearing that particular knot, and while not approved in my council I did speak to people who in casual conversation (I have never confronted anyone for wearing it) stated that their local council has approved it for uniform wear.

While he is not a member of council I did happen to eat lunch at the same table as the young man wearing the tutu (although not the same day he wore it) and found him to be articulate and well spoken.  I was well aware why he chose to wear the tutu the day he wore it and was not embarrased in the least by someone I only met and spoke with once and will likely never meet again.

[MikeS72]

4 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

At this event there was a uniform standard that was established, so, if you are going to pay the fees and attend this event, abide by the standard. 

Here is the uniform standard for said national event (there have been enough things mentioned that I am 99.999% sure which event is being referenced.  I also spoke to that 'former head of an airline' at length, and think he will do a fine job in his new postion within BSA):

All conference participants and staff are to be in full field uniform at dinner and all evening shows. For breakfast, lunch, training sessions, day time and evening activities and events, participants and staff may wear a NOAC, OA or Scout t-shirt or golf shirt with their Scout shorts or trousers during the conference.

 

[skeptic]

I just hope that those that would put someone to the grinding wheel due to their interpretation of something in the GTA or even what something means, would chill a bit.  Also hope that most rational Scouters will have the sense, maturity, and integrity to not embasrass a scout over something like this and instead, if that important to them seek out and discuss with the unit leader(s).  Even an aside meant to simply make a youth think a bit can come off wrong and cause issues.  I learned years ago to not chastize a youth for something that is not dangerous or likely to cause harm, especially uniform stuff.  I jokingly asked a Star Scout at camp what lodge the "tote-n-chip" was since he had that patch where the OA flap is in theory supposed to be placed.  He was upset, as I embarassed him, though I suspect he also knew what I meant.  At chow that evening I was taken to the woodshed by a very annoyed leader from that unit.  I did apologize to them as best I could, but it was really not worth the outcome.  Since then, I only correct or annoy my own youth.