Uniform Standards

[Mrjeff]

I recently attended an event that required a Scout uniform to be worn throughout the event. This ment a full field uniform sometimes; and Scout shorts, trousers, or skirts for other times, along with a Scout T-shirt.  However; there were a few individuals who thought it necessary to express themselves in another way.  They wore tights and a ballerina tutu.  I feel that this is totally inappropriate and the leaders who approved this were way off base.  To many who were in attendance this was an embarrassment and was offensive.  To me this is no different then allowing a young woman to express herself in a two piece thong bathing suit.  Although there is nothing inherently wrong with this dress, it is not appropriate for Scouting events and should not be permitted.  When brought to the attention  of event organizers, I was told that nothing could be done, even though they were representing the Boy Scouts.  If a person refuses to dress appropriately then perhaps that person should attend alternate non Scouting events as they would feel more comfortable at a Comiccon or a dress up party🤨🤨🤨

[BetterWithCheddar]

Oh boy, that's a tough one. Personally, I would not exhaust whatever little capital I have to enforce uniform standards unless someone's appearance is clearly inappropriate. It sounds like these individuals may have missed the mark for the event, but in their minds, it was probably just silly fun. Does their appearance impede your ability to offer a safe and enjoyable program for youth in your area? If the answer is "no," pick a different battle.

[Oldscout448]

59 minutes ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

Oh boy, that's a tough one. Personally, I would not exhaust whatever little capital I have to enforce uniform standards unless someone's appearance is clearly inappropriate. It sounds like these individuals may have missed the mark for the event, but in their minds, it was probably just silly fun. Does their appearance impede your ability to offer a safe and enjoyable program for youth in your area? If the answer is "no," pick a different battle.

I  think the question we should be addressing is what kind of a message does tights and a tutu send, not the safety and enjoyment of the program. As for me I would willingly  spend some capital politely explaining that such attire is inappropriate for the situation.  Just as a field uniform would be at a dance studio.

Edited August 27, 2022 by Oldscout448

[Eagledad]

Spending Capital for the purpose of correcting a scout’s motivation behind bad decisions is the main responsibility of the SM. As everyone agrees, their dress was inappropriate and just plain disrespectful to the group. What level of inappropriate and disrespectful actions are we to consider a starting place?

Barry

[yknot]

3 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

I  think the question we should be addressing is what kind of a message does tights and a tutu send, not the safety and enjoyment of the program. As for me I would willingly  spend some capital politely explaining that such attire is inappropriate for the situation.  Just as a field uniform would be at a dance studio.

Except if the tights and a tutu were a protest over longstanding issues with uniforms that are not being addressed, then it's a highly appropriate way to draw attention to the problem. It's supposedly a scout led organization and yet no one listens to the scouts. if they are attempting to find ways to be heard, I can only support that. 

[qwazse]

There were a number of adequate replies from several fruitful angles here …

 

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

Spending Capital for the purpose of correcting a scout’s motivation behind bad decisions is the main responsibility of the SM. As everyone agrees, their dress was inappropriate and just plain disrespectful to the group. What level of inappropriate and disrespectful actions are we to consider a starting place?

Hold on. Not everyone agreed on “inappropriate and just plain disrespectful”.
@Eagledad the OP is in the context of a regional event. (One reply on the original thread claimed to have witnessed it, and it wasfor only one day of the event.)

There are quirky actions and bad actions. Putting on a uniform more suitable for ballet is quirky. I want my SM to spend capital on averting bad decisions like

• Carelessness with knives, fire, rope, water, wildlife, projectiles …
• Using and dealing drugs,
• Speech that engenders rage or sorrow,
• Falling in with bullies or predators,
• Turning a blind eye or being downright cruel to those in need,
• Mocking someone’s faith based on what they’ve concluded from biased excerpts,
• Repeating their parent’s inappropriate behavior,
• Being inappropriate to their parents …

The list goes on, each demands a lot of personal capital and the coordination of people with high integrity for assistance. I would be very concerned if an SM set aside any one of these to scruple over one scout’s quirk in uniforming.

The real problem here is that the event organizers did not have the stones to tell @Mrjeff that they felt that they didn’t see it tarnishing the event or scouting in general. They passed the buck with “hands are tied” language. They made a rule with the expectation that someone other than themselves would enforce it.

And folks, this is the general truth: BSA uniform standards are made-up rules that BSA will never enforce (unless you’re infringing on the their copyright).

[Eagledad]

22 minutes ago, qwazse said:

There were a number of adequate replies from several fruitful angles here …

 

Hold on. Not everyone agreed on “inappropriate and just plain disrespectful”.
@Eagledad the OP is in the context of a regional event. (One reply on the original thread claimed to have witnessed it, and it wasfor only one day of the event.)

There are quirky actions and bad actions. Putting on a uniform more suitable for ballet is quirky. I want my SM to spend capital on averting bad decisions like

• Carelessness with knives, fire, rope, water, wildlife, projectiles …
• Using and dealing drugs,
• Speech that engenders rage or sorrow,
• Falling in with bullies or predators,
• Turning a blind eye or being downright cruel to those in need,
• Mocking someone’s faith based on what they’ve concluded from biased excerpts,
• Repeating their parent’s inappropriate behavior,
• Being inappropriate to their parents …

The list goes on, each demands a lot of personal capital and the coordination of people with high integrity for assistance. I would be very concerned if an SM set aside any one of these to scruple over one scout’s quirk in uniforming.

The real problem here is that the event organizers did not have the stones to tell @Mrjeff that they felt that they didn’t see it tarnishing the event or scouting in general. They passed the buck with “hands are tied” language. They made a rule with the expectation that someone other than themselves would enforce it.

And folks, this is the general truth: BSA uniform standards are made-up rules that BSA will never enforce (unless you’re infringing on the their copyright).

Well hold on there, are saying their action wasn’t self serving? Giving permission on one bad action, no matter how small or big, leads to more bad actions. Uniform interpretations are lame excuses. The handbook gives the scouts their guidelines.

Barry

 

[Oldscout448]

1 hour ago, yknot said:

Except if the tights and a tutu were a protest over longstanding issues with uniforms that are not being addressed, then it's a highly appropriate way to draw attention to the problem. It's supposedly a scout led organization and yet no one listens to the scouts. if they are attempting to find ways to be heard, I can only support that. 

A protest?  I don't see any mention or even an implication of such in the OP.    

[Eagledad]

27 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

A protest?  I don't see any mention or even an implication of such in the OP.    

I can’t agree with knot that that wearing a tutu and tights is a highly appropriate way to bring attention to their opinion of the uniform. Highly?
It certainly isn’t an intellectual approach to the conversation.

Barry

[MikeS72]

4 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

A protest?  I don't see any mention or even an implication of such in the OP.    

I don't think it had anything to do with uniform issues, but on the day that I saw the scout the OP was upset with the event schedule included an ArrowPride luncheon.  My thought when seeing him was that he would be taking part in that event.  I did see members of his contingent several times during the week, as we were assigned to the same dining hall for meals.  As far as I remember they were ALL in full uniform at dinner.  I even ended up at the same table in the dining hall with that group for lunch midway through the week, and spoke with him briefly.  No one in his group seemed to have any problem with him, so I saw no reason why I should.  It made no sense for me to get upset with how someone I did not know and only spoke to once chose to dress, just like it made no sense for me to be upset with the countless people, youth and adults, who had position patches on their right sleeve instead of the left, or temp patches on their left pocket instead of rank.  Far more important issues in the world and in scouting to worry about.

[Mrjeff]

I started this thread and like I said, if a woman presented herself in a revealing bathing suit people would have been all over it.  If a man showed up in a speedo bathing suit there would have been outcry, if white men showed up wearing white robes someone would have called the police,  how about a t shirt bearing a swastika 50 people would have voiced their disdain.   How about addressing one of these in reference to the ballerina.  There were many who saw this that spoke up about it but most are afraid of being offensive.  Well, people who saw him were offended and I was one of them.  I challenge anyone to justify my example of the swastika in the same way that you are justifying the ballerina. 

[mrjohns2]

I think I was at the same event. They were wearing a particular flag cape as well. It was obnoxious, but not enough for me to voice an objection. 

[Oldscout448]

3 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

I don't think it had anything to do with uniform issues, but on the day that I saw the scout the OP was upset with the event schedule included an ArrowPride luncheon.  My thought when seeing him was that he would be taking part in that event.  I did see members of his contingent several times during the week, as we were assigned to the same dining hall for meals.  As far as I remember they were ALL in full uniform at dinner.  I even ended up at the same table in the dining hall with that group for lunch midway through the week, and spoke with him briefly.  No one in his group seemed to have any problem with him, so I saw no reason why I should.  It made no sense for me to get upset with how someone I did not know and only spoke to once chose to dress, just like it made no sense for me to be upset with the countless people, youth and adults, who had position patches on their right sleeve instead of the left, or temp patches on their left pocket instead of rank.  Far more important issues in the world and in scouting to worry about.

The visualization I got from the OP was a scout wearing a scout shirt with tights and tutu.  With this combination I do indeed have an issue, enough so that any scout in my troop would as a last resort be sent home, but perhaps based upon your account that wasn't exactly the situation.

[qwazse]

I’m hearing a different concern other than scouts disregarding uniform standards. It sounds like scouts were trying to promote an alliance that some did not want to be promoted, and some want BSA to sanction those scouts.

To be fair, scouts want some scouters to favor a position against their conscience. And they want to have an outsized voice by promoting an individualism that can’t be expressed through standard uniforming.

[DuctTape]

10 hours ago, qwazse said:

I’m hearing a different concern other than scouts disregarding uniform standards. It sounds like scouts were trying to promote an alliance that some did not want to be promoted, and some want BSA to sanction those scouts.

To be fair, scouts want some scouters to favor a position against their conscience. And they want to have an outsized voice by promoting an individualism that can’t be expressed through standard uniforming.

That is one possible interpretation. Another possibility is the scouts are mocking those whom said alliance is being proffered. Another possibility is the scouts were just trying to have fun and be goofy. 

There are other possibilities as well. Likely the true intent of the scouts is one of the other possibilities. We should be careful to not ascribe intent based on our own interpretations which are clouded by our own experiences and biases. 

If it were me and they were my scouts I would start by engaging in a conversation in a non-judgemental manner. (With a smile)... "Hey Jimmy I saw you wearing tights and a tutu, I don't think I have seen that before. How did you come up with that?"