Need help understanding the adult power structure of a troop. Sources requested.

[T2Eagle]

29 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

What's this "new Scout Patrol"?  

SAME AGE PATROLS

1. New-Scout patrols

As the name implies, a new-Scout patrol serves Scouts who have just joined the troop. The patrol elects its own leader, just like other patrols, but usually for a shorter term—perhaps one month instead of six months. An older Scout called a troop guide works with the Scouts to help them get acclimated to Scouting and to reach the rank of First Class. Backing up the troop guide is an assistant Scoutmaster whose main responsibility is to work with new Scouts.

Scouts typically remain in a new-Scout patrol for their first year in the troop or until they reach First Class rank (whichever comes first), although the transition happens sooner in some troops. At that point, members can either choose which regular patrol they want to join or opt to stay together as a regular patrol.

In some troops, Scouts join a patrol together and stay together throughout their time in the troop.

https://troopleader.scouting.org/types-of-patrols/

Lots of discussion in the archives here on the pros and cons.  My troop does them for 6 months, which effectively means crossover in March through summer camp.  

[Scoutcrafter]

First of all, let me say a sincere “thank you” for all the feedback. Often, I’ll spend 10-20 minutes composing a thoughtful response on other forums only to be met with silence. I want to let you know I really, really appreciate they time you spent replying to my questions.

I totally agree about Scouts BSA being scout-led. If our patrol was functioning as you [collectively] described, with the SM advising the SPL, the SPL advising the PL, and the PL leading the meetings and coming up with agendas with the SPL, I’d be totally satisfied, and I’d keep quiet and watch.

Unfortunately, that is not how the first four months have gone. This troop creates “new scout patrols” rather than integrating new scouts into existing patrols – that doesn’t help. Our 11 year old kids are almost completely unable to run meetings and come up with agendas on their own – or at least they have not been given the chance to. Instead, the CC has been acting as a den leader and running everything. The CC also has never solicited any ideas from me, either.

Your comments have eased my concern about delaying Scout rank in favor of learning practical camping skills. It makes sense. However, I also agree with fred8033 that Scout rank should be a quick win, similar to Bobcat in cubs. Give the scouts some kind of recognition early on, and give them a badge to adorn their left pocket. Then again, do 11 year-olds really care about getting the Scout badge? Or is that something only an adult would worry about?

But as some of you have sensed, there are more issues at play. This issue of who decides patrol agendas is just the most recent case, one that seemed pretty significant to me.

The list of things that bug me keeps getting longer. Here are a few examples. Some are pretty trivial, some are pretty serious:

• ASMs/troop guides/patrol advisors are locked out of Scoutbook, making it impossible to see the patrol’s progression at a glance or send emails through SB. I had to create my own tool in Google Sheets to quickly see who was missing what. Only the advancement chair (in this case also the CC) and the SM have access to scout and patrol profiles.
• ASMs/troop guides/patrol advisors are locked out of Troopmaster, our troop’s preferred troop management tool. To send emails efficiently, I bought a patrol domain name and created a mailing list using my business web/email hosting service. Adding/changing calendar items must be done by the SM.
• Safety issue: at the knife “safety” meeting, scouts were instructed to use the butts of metal hatchets to baton their folding knives when splitting kindling. First, this is a terrible idea as doing that could easily break the hinge pin, rendering the knife useless in a survival situation. Second, such a practice is explicitly prohibited in the knife safety section on page 380 of the handbook.
• Safety issue: also at the knife safety meeting which was also working toward totem chip, the scouts were taught an unsafe technique for using a hatchet to split blocks of wood. They were instructed to hold block upright with one hand, use hatchet in other hand to strike hard enough to embed hatchet in wood, remove holding hand, lift hatchet attached to block, then chop. That first part about holding the block with one hand while embedding the hatchet with the other is very unsafe, as a missed glance could land on the holding hand. There are much safer techniques of splitting wood, easily found on bushcraft YouTube channels.
• Gave the scouts wrong info by saying BSA doesn’t allow fixed-blade knives and limits length to 4 inches. The truth is that BSA does not prohibit fixed blades and doesn’t have a length limit. Troops and camps can impose their own restrictions, but those restrictions do not emanate from BSA nati0onal.
• Organized a water balloon fight during a campout, contradicting BSA’s prohibition on such activities. Personally, I think it’s a bad rule. However, I don’t think I would violate the rule based on my personal opinion. I’d respect the rule even if I didn’t like it. But it makes me wonder what other rules they might disregard.
• Absolutely zero scout spirit/patrol spirit. In 4 months, I have not heard one song, one patrol yell, or one campfire skit.
• Requiring all rank requirements to be completed and filling out a 2-page form before the scoutmaster will schedule a scoutmaster conference. This seems like adding requirements to me.
• An adult built the campfire at the last campout.
• Withholding signatures for rank requirements until all the scouts’ books can be signed together at the same time (they said they do this only for Scout rank).

And there are more issues beyond these.

As a newcomer, I’ve had to bite my tongue and just observe their misguided practices. And now I’m realizing that trying to change their organizational myopia will be a lost cause.

By now, everyone here is thinking, “then why not just switch to another troop?”

The primary reason we haven’t jumped ship yet is the troop’s meeting location: it’s a friggin summer camp with it’s own pool, rifle and shotgun ranges, archery range, campfire pit, and acres of natural space. If some scouts need the swimming merit badge, they’ll quickly organize a swimming day. They schedule shooting days quite often. And I’m chomping at the bits to suggest some fun patrol activities to do in the various nooks and crannies around the campus.

But alas, I know the physical space isn’t a good reason enough to stay. I know the PEOPLE are more important than the space. I’m not saying the current leadership is bad. They’re totally decent people who care about their scouts. But their myopia and their unfamiliarity (or disregard) with current BSA practices really bothers me.

Many have asked if my son is having fun. The answer is that he’s indifferent. Some of the time has been fun, some of it has been just passing time.

A related question is…am I having fun? Given what I’ve said above, the first 4 months have been pretty deflating. It’s exhausting to get shut down and sidelined constantly. I’ve literally lost sleep over some of these issues.

This is following the absolutely incredible, fulfilling, and rewarding experience we had in cub scouts, where I was my son’s den leader for the last 5 years. Yes, I’m completely aware of the differences between cubs and scouts, and I totally accept those differences. Indeed, we’ve been preparing for the changes for the last two years as a Webelos den, as I gave the den increasing amounts of autonomy and instructed them on the patrol method.

So when we add together mine and my son’s sentiments - indifference and despair - it doesn’t make a strong case for staying, despite the extraordinary meeting space.

To their credit, the CC approached me yesterday at a merit badge course I was helping lead, and agreed with my suggestion to integrate more fun and games into our patrol meetings. They (I’m using gender unspecific terms to shield their identity) said we could take 30 minutes during our upcoming meetings for some team building games like I requested.

I appreciate the gesture, and it shows they understood my concerns. They also assured me that after we get the cooking/first aid/knots meetings out of the way, I will have more freedom to guide the patrol the way I want. But honestly it’s probably too little, too late. I have a feeling I will be butting heads with these leaders on an ongoing basis.

We do have another troop in mind. In fact, it’s the troop of our pack’s chartered org, the one were most of my Webelos crossed over to. We know and love many of the families there, and I believe I will face much less resistance whenever I make a suggestion.

I’m going to contact the other troop’s scoutmaster and see if we can attend some upcoming patrol and troop meetings, to help finalize our decision.

Thanks again for all your input!

[MattR]

I understand your frustration. I also really appreciate your honesty and trying to see both the good and bad.

A suggestion: let your son decide whether to move. For one, boy led? Second, it seems that in 4 months you've already made a good impression. "Hey! Fun games are a good idea! Maybe that guy has more good ideas." To be honest, meetings at a summer camp is, well, brilliant. 

Maybe there's a different approach. The CC seems to like your ideas. How about just having a friendly, honest conversation with him or her. The business with fixed blade knives and lengths is just a myth that lots of adults succumb too. I did. That could be an honest mistake. Not allowing parents to see progress could be the similar (it wasn't too long ago that only a few people had access to the troop database). Doing scout rank together? Okay, I'll give you that one. But maybe a bit of time is needed and you'll have their trust.

At the same time, keep a similar, critical view of the other troop. They all have warts.

Good luck.

[Eagledad]

Your troop doesn’t really sound that bad. All troops have a few character traits that outsiders struggle with. Sounds like the adults could use a little training to get everyone’s mind on the same goals.

The PLC in our troop did all the Woodstools training using only BSA handbooks for reference without any trained troop adults watching. Both the new scouts and there parents were required to attend that class on their first campout. That was how we kept woods tools skills consistent and showed how much we trusted the scouts.

One suggestion for you is to volunteer as the troop adult trainer. You promise to use BSA materials, so everyone knows they are following BSA guidelines, policies, rules, and so forth. Be humble about and don’t go into it trying to change the SMs program. But, you would be amazed how senior leaders are open to different approaches when they learn from materials.
 

There was a lot of confusion of how scouts and MB counselors should work together and where the SMs authority fit in the MB process in our troop, so one of our committee members developed a course using BSA materials. One of the district council members caught wing of it and asked us (her) to teach a course every year to all the troops. You would be amazed how far off the rails a whole district of troops can go when there isn’t training specific to that issue. 
 

I see this as an opportunity for you to help both you and your troop adults step it up a notch. If you know how to make these things fun, you could do some adult training at troop meetings and give the adults a fun place to go while at the same time getting them out of the scouts way.

Good luck. I see a ticket item here.

Barry

Edited August 1, 2022 by Eagledad

[fred8033]

4 hours ago, Scoutcrafter said:

..., do 11 year-olds really care about getting the Scout badge? ... 

It's really about breaking the ice; getting the new guy up in-front with a positive experience so that they want to be up there again.   And, when it's friends with friends, there is something different there.  In cubs, it was mostly scout with proud parents.  Now, it's the scout's peers recognizing him and the adults off to the side / back.

4 hours ago, Scoutcrafter said:

The list of things that bug me keeps getting longer.   ... Many have asked if my son is having fun. The answer is that he’s indifferent. Some of the time has been fun, some of it has been just passing time.

... the first 4 months have been pretty deflating. It’s exhausting to get shut down and sidelined constantly. I’ve literally lost sleep over some of these issues.

... We do have another troop in mind. In fact, it’s the troop of our pack’s chartered org, the one were most of my Webelos crossed over to. We know and love many of the families there, and I believe I will face much less resistance whenever I make a suggestion.

I’m going to contact the other troop’s scoutmaster and see if we can attend some upcoming patrol and troop meetings, to help finalize our decision.

We all nit-pick when things don't work out.  The smallest issues get under our skin.  

I would have loved to have been part of a troop that could meet at a camp regularly.  But then again, I'd imagine that gift can twist the mentality of the troop and the volunteers too.  

IMHO ... don't get stuck trying to make it work.  If you and your scout decide to stay, great!   ... but if you are already losing sleep over it, seriously considering moving on.  Another troop.  Another activity.  

In hindsight, our kids years are short.  There are many paths to take.  Trying to force a good result from a bad situation is not constructive.  

IMHO ... look at your scout and see what is best for him.  

At times, I wish I would have just bought a popup camper and taken the family on more adventures.  Other times, I am thankful for the memories my sons have with their friends.  

 

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by fred8033

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, MattR said:

A suggestion: let your son decide whether to move. For one, boy led? Second, it seems that in 4 months you've already made a good impression. "Hey! Fun games are a good idea! Maybe that guy has more good ideas." To be honest, meetings at a summer camp is, well, brilliant.

This is GREAT ADVICE! (emphasis)

Scouts BSA is NOT about what you want, but what the Scouts want. I was involved in a troop, and some new, well intentioned, but untrained, started taking over the troop. They wanted a continuation of Cub Scouts. As my frustration with them and the situation increased, I backed away because IT WAS NOT ABOUT ME BUT MY KIDS (caps for emphasis). As long as my sons were having fun, I was fine.

It was when they started having issues with the new adults, and they were no longer having fun, that the decision to leave was made.

[qwazse]

Regarding scoutbook, as an ASM, it took me all of 2020 to get used to it, two months to realize that I didn’t have access to the records of scouts who transferred from troop that merged with us last year, four months to realize that I didn’t have access to this year’s crossovers, a month to realize that everyone though I had access and fix it.

We have one ASM who dedicated nearly all of his scouter time to troubleshoot all of the glitches. If it weren’t for him, we’d be toast.

[qwazse]

Oh, help me out guys. Where is that ban on water balloons written?

@Scoutcrafter we don’t have any of those, or super soakers. We only have portabke heat stroke abatement devices.

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

Oh, help me out guys. Where is that ban on water balloons written?

@Scoutcrafter we don’t have any of those, or super soakers. We only have portabke heat stroke abatement devices.

Shooting Sports guide.  Page 100.  https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/Outdoor Program/pdf/30931_WB.pdf ... Must be bio-degradable and ping pong sized.  Ok with catapult and sling-shot.  Never aimed at a person.   ....  It can be argued that the rule applies to only shooting events.  The specific rules are under catapults and sling shots.  ... So, throwing a water balloon by hand is not subject to shooting sports rules.  

Then, look at Guide To Safe Scouting ... https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416.pdf ... "Prohibited Activities ...  15. Activities where participants shoot or throw objects at each other, such as rock throwing, paintball, laser or archery tag, sock fights, or dodgeball"

Now, that's pretty clear.  It's one of those rules that we hate.  But then again, scouts can easily become a lord of the flies situation where the strong gang up on the weak.  It's an understandable rule from that aspect.

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by fred8033

[SSScout]

Water balloon battles are not a good idea, UNLESS... you promise to count, then pick up and account for ALL the rubber balloons that are used, so they do not become a threat to wildlife trying to eat them. Truism....

 

[Eagledad]

19 minutes ago, SSScout said:

Water balloon battles are not a good idea, UNLESS... you promise to count, then pick up and account for ALL the rubber balloons that are used, so they do not become a threat to wildlife trying to eat them. Truism....

 

Picking up the debris is part of the fun.

Barry

 

[qwazse]

12 hours ago, fred8033 said:

…
Then, look at Guide To Safe Scouting ... https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416.pdf ... "Prohibited Activities ...  15. Activities where participants shoot or throw objects at each other, such as rock throwing, paintball, laser or archery tag, sock fights, or dodgeball"

Now, that's pretty clear.  It's one of those rules that we hate.  But then again, scouts can easily become a lord of the flies situation where the strong gang up on the weak.  It's an understandable rule from that aspect.

Or, the weak learn how, with teamwork they may thwart the strong. Don’t want our scouts learning that lesson! 

[elitts]

I'm going to try and address a few of your points within following quote rather than trying to create a dozen separate quote bubbles.  My responses are bolded.

.

 

On 8/1/2022 at 4:10 PM, Scoutcrafter said:

Unfortunately, that is not how the first four months have gone. This troop creates “new scout patrols” rather than integrating new scouts into existing patrols – that doesn’t help. Our 11 year old kids are almost completely unable to run meetings and come up with agendas on their own – or at least they have not been given the chance to. Instead, the CC has been acting as a den leader and running everything. The CC also has never solicited any ideas from me, either.

This is unfortunately the way New Scout Patrols regularly end up functioning.  I'm not saying it's good, but then I hate NSPs in the first place.  But it's VERY common.

 

• ASMs/troop guides/patrol advisors are locked out of Scoutbook, making it impossible to see the patrol’s progression at a glance or send emails through SB. I had to create my own tool in Google Sheets to quickly see who was missing what. Only the advancement chair (in this case also the CC) and the SM have access to scout and patrol profiles.
• ASMs/troop guides/patrol advisors are locked out of Troopmaster, our troop’s preferred troop management tool. To send emails efficiently, I bought a patrol domain name and created a mailing list using my business web/email hosting service. Adding/changing calendar items must be done by the SM.

I may have missed it, but what exactly is your position within the troop?  Only the Scoutmaster and those ASMs he/she officially delegates "sign-off" authority to would normally have the access you are talking about here.  As someone else mentioned, in Scouts, Patrols don't "progress" only individuals do, so access to the advancement of an entire patrol is typically very limited.

• Safety issue: also at the knife safety meeting which was also working toward totem chip, the scouts were taught an unsafe technique for using a hatchet to split blocks of wood. They were instructed to hold block upright with one hand, use hatchet in other hand to strike hard enough to embed hatchet in wood, remove holding hand, lift hatchet attached to block, then chop. That first part about holding the block with one hand while embedding the hatchet with the other is very unsafe, as a missed glance could land on the holding hand. There are much safer techniques of splitting wood, easily found on bushcraft YouTube channels.

That's a pretty standard technique, I regularly demonstrate it myself in situations where I have been asked for help.  In my opinion it's no more "unsafe" than any other aspect of using a hatchet if it's done right.  However when I'm demonstrating it I heavily emphasize that they should only be swinging the hatchet 5-6 inches at most and only when there is plenty of room to strike well away from a hand.  That said, I don't teach that technique as a way to "split logs", I teach it as a way to shave strips off of an already split wedge of wood.  Honestly, the far bigger issue to watch out for with hatchets is scouts that like them so much they use them to the point of muscle weakness and then don't stop.

• Gave the scouts wrong info by saying BSA doesn’t allow fixed-blade knives and limits length to 4 inches. The truth is that BSA does not prohibit fixed blades and doesn’t have a length limit. Troops and camps can impose their own restrictions, but those restrictions do not emanate from BSA nati0onal.

I think as a result of your general frustration you are splitting hairs here.  Yes, you are technically correct, however from the perspective of the scouts, does it matter if the restriction comes from the troop, the camp or the BSA?  If the summer camp you regularly attend even for monthly camp-outs has such a rule, it makes far more sense to just tell everyone "no" than to have ongoing arguments because scouts end up with knives that they aren't allowed to use on some camp-outs.  Personally I tell our scouts and parents they really should avoid any knife longer than 3.5" (for scouts) because that's our state's threshold for automatically considering something a "Weapon" and the risk of major consequences go up significantly if they forget they have a knife in a coat pocket or backpack and anything more than a standard pocket knife.

• Organized a water balloon fight during a campout, contradicting BSA’s prohibition on such activities. Personally, I think it’s a bad rule. However, I don’t think I would violate the rule based on my personal opinion. I’d respect the rule even if I didn’t like it. But it makes me wonder what other rules they might disregard.

You are correct that this is against the rules.  However, that rule change was made within the last few years and given how bad the BSA is at publicizing exactly how they are changing rules, it does tend to take a while for things to become common knowledge.

• Absolutely zero scout spirit/patrol spirit. In 4 months, I have not heard one song, one patrol yell, or one campfire skit.

The lack of patrol spirit is a direct result of the BSA instituting NSPs and attempting to go with age based patrols.  Once you lose your long-standing patrols with history and pride, you lose any real sense of patrol cohesiveness unless you happen to have a strong group of friends in one patrol.

• Requiring all rank requirements to be completed and filling out a 2-page form before the scoutmaster will schedule a scoutmaster conference. This seems like adding requirements to me.

I agree that seems really odd.  I'd be curious to see what all the SM is expecting a scout to include on the form.

• An adult built the campfire at the last campout.

Eh.. I try and let the scouts build the fires, but ultimately there have been times I've done it myself because I'm not willing to sit around for another hour  waiting on them as they keep trying to skip the "gather tinder & kindling" stage and there's only one fire ring.

• Withholding signatures for rank requirements until all the scouts’ books can be signed together at the same time (they said they do this only for Scout rank).

And there are more issues beyond these.

As a newcomer, I’ve had to bite my tongue and just observe their misguided practices. And now I’m realizing that trying to change their organizational myopia will be a lost cause.

This is following the absolutely incredible, fulfilling, and rewarding experience we had in cub scouts, where I was my son’s den leader for the last 5 years. Yes, I’m completely aware of the differences between cubs and scouts, and I totally accept those differences. Indeed, we’ve been preparing for the changes for the last two years as a Webelos den, as I gave the den increasing amounts of autonomy and instructed them on the patrol method.

I appreciate the gesture, and it shows they understood my concerns. They also assured me that after we get the cooking/first aid/knots meetings out of the way, I will have more freedom to guide the patrol the way I want. B

To be honest, even though you say you are aware of the differences between Cubs and Scouts, some of what you've written (the underlined portion above) makes me think you haven't quite made the transition as well as you think you have.  While many of your points have some validity, your overall viewpoint leads me to think you still want/desire to have a much more involved "advisory" role than is really ideal in the Scouts BSA program.

While I'm all in favor of new parents getting involved in helping right away, in general, I've found the best approach is to separate parents and their own scouts for the first year at least.  So if someone comes in and wants to be an ASM immediately, they might get assigned to mentor the Star/Life scouts, NOT to act as the ASM advising their own scout's NSP.  This serves a number of purposes.  First, it gets the new parent into a position where they aren't tempted to try and turn Scouts into Webelos III with the urge to make things efficient or make them run smoothly.  Second, as long as the "Advisor ASM" for a patrol is a parent (or their former DL) it's REALLY tough for the scouts to become independent.  They've had 4-5 years to become totally habituated to the idea that the "Adult" is in charge and they will constantly fall back on the advisor for help rather than stretching themselves to figure things out.  A totally new adult has a better chance of just sitting off to the side as an emergency resource than an adult that has been invested in that group for the last few years.

[curious_scouter]

On 7/30/2022 at 8:34 AM, SSScout said:

back in Paleo Scout time, one could not "work" on a given rank until one had "earned" the preceding one.  That changed

Personally, I do not favor "New Scout Patrols", I would rather see the newbies absorbed into the regular Patrols (traditional Patrol Method) for the older Scouts to then take under their wing. Natural progression of serving as a patrol member, then being a leader in any and all capacities, but that's just me.

I love that there is no set "order" for Scout-->First Class rank requirement completion.  And there is some wisdom to connecting Scout-->First Class advancement with what fits for older scouts into a win-win to maximize results in meetings and outings. 

What is ultimately most important is what is the goal for that Scout and do they feel empowered to achieve it?  If not, they should talk to their PL/SPL/SM to get help and advice.  That might not come in the form of "let's change our meeting plans" so be prepared for some homework or outside of the box options.  Have your scout start with the Patrol Leader and get the PL to bring up any needs at the next PLC.  But, if the CC is running the new scout show, that might be a symptom of a larger problem with adopting the boy lead philosophy. 

Not to derail the main topic, but the new scout patrol comment jumped out at me.  We are about to rebalance our patrols to start the year.  We had the discussion about how to structure patrols too.  For now, we're sticking not with "new scout patrols" but "similar age patrols".  Two main reasons:   1) YPT says scouts must be within 2 years age to share accommodations, having like-aged patrols makes this less challenging when doing an outing under the patrol method 2) we were worried with older scouts in a patrol the younger scouts might defer leadership chances to the older boys too often - we want the younger aged patrols to have a PL and to have the PL and patrol have the challenge of sorting out campsite/duty roster/menu/etc.  We also want every age group to have representation at the PLC so like-aged patrols seemed to support that too.  Just some thoughts, but we're having similar debates here about Patrol age structure. 

[elitts]

On 8/8/2022 at 3:32 PM, curious_scouter said:

Not to derail the main topic, but the new scout patrol comment jumped out at me.  We are about to rebalance our patrols to start the year.  We had the discussion about how to structure patrols too.  For now, we're sticking not with "new scout patrols" but "similar age patrols".  Two main reasons:   1) YPT says scouts must be within 2 years age to share accommodations, having like-aged patrols makes this less challenging when doing an outing under the patrol method 2) we were worried with older scouts in a patrol the younger scouts might defer leadership chances to the older boys too often - we want the younger aged patrols to have a PL and to have the PL and patrol have the challenge of sorting out campsite/duty roster/menu/etc.  We also want every age group to have representation at the PLC so like-aged patrols seemed to support that too.  Just some thoughts, but we're having similar debates here about Patrol age structure. 

If you have traditional patrols with the freedom to move between patrols on at least a regular basis you'll end up a good cross section of ages at PLCs fairly naturally.  What will typically happen is scouts will self select into something that resembles age based patrols just because they'll choose to move in small friend groups.  A group of 5 twelve year olds might join the Fox Patrol because they like some aspect of it.  Then the last 2 fifteen year olds will get through 6 months with the 12 year olds and get annoyed so they'll join the Eagle Patrol because there are 3 other fifteen year olds in it etc..  Traditional patrols don't typically end up with a full mix of 10-17 year old kids.  Particularly if you add in at least one "Older scout patrol".

As far as getting the younger kids experience as PL, the way that's accomplished is if a 13-14 year old wants to be PL but keeps losing to a scout 1 or two years younger, you suggest to them that they switch to a patrol with a higher number of 11-12 year olds that can't decide who to vote for.  And when it comes to getting newer scouts experience with making duty rosters and menus, you just remind the Patrol Leaders that their job is to make sure stuff happens, NOT to do everything themselves; so a good Patrol Leader should be assigning the tasks of creating a duty roster to a patrol member and then reviewing and amending the result, not doing it themselves every month.

As far as the tenting goes, I think you just tell kids they are allowed to tent solo and if they don't like that idea they can decide to change to a patrol with people the correct age to have a partner.  While I know most kids like having a tent buddy, there always seems to be at least a few kids who'd rather be alone anyway.