Coed Dens - Pilot Program

[Eagle1993]

Several councils have kicked off pilot programs for coed dens.  Feels a bit odd as many if not most coed packs I know of already operate this way.  
 

Quote

 

This pilot will allow the units designated as “family” Cub Scout packs that currently serve boys and girls in single gender dens the ability to form “family dens” with boys and girls together in the same den. This allows one more option for family packs to form dens that best meet the needs of the families they are serving. We realize many packs are already doing this, so here’s your chance to be official!

 

https://colbsa.org/familyden/

[malraux]

Yeah, its just a pointless formality before announcing that coed dens work for Cub Scout aged youth.

[Jameson76]

9 minutes ago, malraux said:

Yeah, its just a pointless formality before announcing that coed dens work for Cub Scout aged youth.

Which will then become ALL dens are coed (who doesn't like families right??), which will then morph to "piloting" coed troops (and there already are they are just separate on paper), and then ALL troops will be coed and it will not be an option to be single gender, because that's not inclusive.

Should just get on with it and let it shake out

[yknot]

Realistically the only way to manage evolving youth gender issues is to have blended dens and troops. Otherwise units would practically have to maintain up to date  spreadsheets on their scouts orientation and identification preferences, which is not only intrusive and icky but can change and/or evolve within the year, sometimes multiple times. Some of the evolving youth identifications also no longer fit into clear cut boy/girl gender or orientation categories. If you are claiming to offer single gender dens and troops but an incident happens because a leader is not aware that a youth's situation has changed and made adjustments, it opens up a possible new level of liability for leaders, scouts, and BSA. There is also liability in trying to be any kind of gatekeeper, such as "You identified as boy at the beginning of the year, so according to BSA you are a boy on paper and belong in this troop until the year is done." There is also the volunteer issue with units not able to come up with the necessary volunteers to run gender segregated dens or troops. My preference would be to allow units all options -- single gender boy or girl or blended -- but I think liability and volunteer management issues will push scouting towards blended, or family, units soon. 

[5thGenTexan]

59 minutes ago, yknot said:

Realistically the only way to manage evolving youth gender issues is to have blended dens and troops. Otherwise units would practically have to maintain up to date  spreadsheets on their scouts orientation and identification preferences, which is not only intrusive and icky but can change and/or evolve within the year, sometimes multiple times. Some of the evolving youth identifications also no longer fit into clear cut boy/girl gender or orientation categories. If you are claiming to offer single gender dens and troops but an incident happens because a leader is not aware that a youth's situation has changed and made adjustments, it opens up a possible new level of liability for leaders, scouts, and BSA. There is also liability in trying to be any kind of gatekeeper, such as "You identified as boy at the beginning of the year, so according to BSA you are a boy on paper and belong in this troop until the year is done." There is also the volunteer issue with units not able to come up with the necessary volunteers to run gender segregated dens or troops. My preference would be to allow units all options -- single gender boy or girl or blended -- but I think liability and volunteer management issues will push scouting towards blended, or family, units soon. 

Personally. having a blended Troop would make my life easier.

[yknot]

3 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Personally. having a blended Troop would make my life easier.

I definitely think it should be an option yesterday. 

[Eagle1993]

2 hours ago, yknot said:

Realistically the only way to manage evolving youth gender issues is to have blended dens and troops. Otherwise units would practically have to maintain up to date  spreadsheets on their scouts orientation and identification preferences, which is not only intrusive and icky but can change and/or evolve within the year, sometimes multiple times. Some of the evolving youth identifications also no longer fit into clear cut boy/girl gender or orientation categories. If you are claiming to offer single gender dens and troops but an incident happens because a leader is not aware that a youth's situation has changed and made adjustments, it opens up a possible new level of liability for leaders, scouts, and BSA. There is also liability in trying to be any kind of gatekeeper, such as "You identified as boy at the beginning of the year, so according to BSA you are a boy on paper and belong in this troop until the year is done." There is also the volunteer issue with units not able to come up with the necessary volunteers to run gender segregated dens or troops. My preference would be to allow units all options -- single gender boy or girl or blended -- but I think liability and volunteer management issues will push scouting towards blended, or family, units soon. 

I have one transgender youth in my Troop (who is life and is working towards her Eagle).  By having a very closely linked Troop, it has greatly simplified this change. 

From my experience, gender  has a bigger impact on scouting than sexual orientation (which actually rarely if ever comes up).  Sexual orientation, to me, has no real impact on scouting.

The issue with gender is shared tents, showers, separate units, etc.  Talking with scouts, full transgender is still actually pretty rare at schools; however, from what I have seen, the use of "they" is more common.  As a SM, what do we do with scouts that identify as "they"? 

I am still a fan of allowing single gender units.  For example, if you are a boy only unit and one of your youth members comes out as "they" or a "she" then you can help them find another unit to work with.  Similar for an all girl unit.  That said, units who are willing, should be allowed to simply welcome all scouts (and not attempt to form several different Troops just to accommodate the different genders).

I do expect that in 10 years or less, assuming BSA survives, units would have to apply to be single gender and default to all genders.

[scoutldr]

"They" is and always has been plural.

[malraux]

3 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

"They" is and always has been plural.

Shakespeare used a singular they.

[ToKindle96]

"here's your chance to be official." I remain dismayed at the ease with which scouters ignore the rules and everyone knows about it and looks away. Until this pilot there were no mixed gender dens, yet many units had them anyway. I know... leadership challenges, efficiency, made sense for families, scouts wanted it that way, etc. but rules are rules. Pretty hard to instill the scout law in scouts when we flagrantly disregard the first point of it. What kind of example is that for the youth? 

[malraux]

Just now, ToKindle96 said:

"here's your chance to be official." I remain dismayed at the ease with which scouters ignore the rules and everyone knows about it and looks away. Until this pilot there were no mixed gender dens, yet many units had them anyway. I know... leadership challenges, efficiency, made sense for families, scouts wanted it that way, etc. but rules are rules. Pretty hard to instill the scout law in scouts when we flagrantly disregard the first point of it. What kind of example is that for the youth? 

The previous rules allowed for a single gender boys den and a single gender girls den to meet at the same time and location. And den leaders can be den leaders of multiple dens.

[Eagle1993]

29 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

"They" is and always has been plural.

It is definitely confusing.  

[Eagle1993]

3 minutes ago, ToKindle96 said:

"here's your chance to be official." I remain dismayed at the ease with which scouters ignore the rules and everyone knows about it and looks away. Until this pilot there were no mixed gender dens, yet many units had them anyway. I know... leadership challenges, efficiency, made sense for families, scouts wanted it that way, etc. but rules are rules. Pretty hard to instill the scout law in scouts when we flagrantly disregard the first point of it. What kind of example is that for the youth? 

The most violated rule in all of scouting is the charter org agreement.  From training to product sales, many charters are not following the agreement.  

I think if units want to see councils crack down on rules, there are many rules not currently heavily enforced.  Just start reading all of G2SS.

Personally, I do agree with you.  BSA should not have any rules they don't intend to fully enforce.  That would probably prevent them from writing unnecessary rules. 

[jcousino]

You write the rules so that the council can point back to the CO you did not follow the agreement to follow the rules if there is a problem on a unit event. 

I keeping getting red listed in my in council( hot water)just trying to get  my council to follow G@SS on their on events.  I would find it hard to imagine were a council would sanction a troop unless in made national news. It going to be interesting how much control the council will play in events when they are the CO and now directly responsible for the action of the troops.

[jcousino]

1 hour ago, malraux said:

The previous rules allowed for a single gender boys den and a single gender girls den to meet at the same time and location. And den leaders can be den leaders of multiple dens.

that was just a way of not coming clean about what the real plan was.  co-ed i believe has always been the plan .

Just did not what to disenfranchise  some of the church based CO's right away

Coed troop will be next that may be a little harder to get the remaining COs fundamentals church to buy into.

I did like the concept of venture scouts being coed at that age (14-18-21)