Staffing Shortages and What Are We Paying For?

[elitts]

19 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Comments I heard from staff this past week:

"Scouts who are not swimmers can go in a canoe with a buddy if that Scout is a swimmer." 

That seems to be a pretty common misapplication of the rule as I've heard LOTS of Scouters saying it too.  Probably because the rule isn't written well.  Canoes are a different enough beast from other multi-person craft that they should just have their own entry specifying non-swimmers can only ride with adult swimmers.

BSA's fixation on narrative formatting (rather than bullet points) is a real problem in many of these instances of guideline misunderstandings.

[Eagle1993]

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

Adult volunteers are extensions of paid staff.

I've never heard this.  I struggle to get enough adults to come to camp already...  High adventure hasn't been an issue.  Summer camp, they scatter.

[69RoadRunner]

19 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

I've never heard this.  I struggle to get enough adults to come to camp already...  High adventure hasn't been an issue.  Summer camp, they scatter.

Perhaps I worded it poorly. We are there for scout safety, first and foremost. Sure, we help out. We should not be viewed as replacements for paid staff while being charged full price and burning personal leave.

[fred8033]

5 hours ago, qwazse said:

Adult volunteers are extensions of paid staff.

Can be.  Camp should not assume unless explicitly stated.  Kudos to adult volunteers who step up to supplement camp staff.  That's their choice and kudos to them.

[Eagle94-A1]

I know things happen with staff.  I have been asked teach classes at summer camp. Also some courses ask you to supplement the staff, i.e. BSA Lifeguard. But I have not been to a summer camp that has charged full price for adults. Every camp I have been to or worked at had 2 adults free, and some type of formula for extra adults. And the fee for the extra adults has never been the same price as the Scouts.

As for charging the Scouts extra to cover adult costs, i have families that can barely cover the cost for their Scouts. In fact i have 2 Scouts not go to camp this year, because they could not raise the money within 5 weeks of joining. 

[Jameson76]

If only Summit had squirreled away some of the +/- $750 million ( yes they squandered that much) spent on the Disney Scouting Land into some T-Bills or interest bearing bonds, maybe they could afford staff.

That balloon payment looming is not paying for itself

[Sentinel947]

On 7/27/2022 at 8:11 AM, qwazse said:

Adult volunteers are extensions of paid staff. I don’t know why anyone would think otherwise. Every time I’m at camp for a full week, I check in with the camp director and ask where I can pitch in. (It’s usually aquatics. Not many scouters keep up their guard certification.)

This is nothing new. When I wanted to earn First Aid MB, my SM walked us over to a neighboring campsite and introduced me the their SM who would be my counselor.

The challenge these days for scouters is that simply keeping up with training is sucking a lot of bandwidth. (I really admire the COPE volunteers who keep the climbing courses rolling.)

There's a difference between Unit Adult Chaperones/Volunteers at Summer camp helping with food serving, helping clean the shower house or doing odd jobs for the Ranger, vs being enlisted to run a program area that would be covered by a paid staff member. Especially when the adults in question took off a week of work, AND got charged $400+ for the privilege to be unpaid volunteers doing a paid staff position. 

I used to volunteer regularly when I attended Scout camps with my unit, helping the Commissioners, or the Dining Staff or Shooting Sports staff. I even co taught First Aid Merit Badge one year,  but I did it freely. I saw a need, offered to help, that offer was accepted. I certainly wasn't being charged full price entry, and then having my arm twisted with some variation of "We need you to run a program area, it's for the kids ya know?" Camp leadership that inflict that kind of stuff on the adult unit volunteers, will strangle the golden goose that is their summer camp. I get adults need to pay full price for things like Philmont or Summit, but the idea that an adult volunteer attending summer camp so their unit can go has to pay the same fee as a youth who is participating in the camp program is taking advantage of the volunteers. 

[curious_scouter]

On 7/27/2022 at 9:21 AM, elitts said:

That seems to be a pretty common misapplication of the rule as I've heard LOTS of Scouters saying it too.  Probably because the rule isn't written well.  Canoes are a different enough beast from other multi-person craft that they should just have their own entry specifying non-swimmers can only ride with adult swimmers.

BSA's fixation on narrative formatting (rather than bullet points) is a real problem in many of these instances of guideline misunderstandings.

That's actually the policy.  Within boating for those not classified as swimmers there are two tiers:

• Fixed seat rowboat or pedal boat:  Those not classified as swimmers can operate "fixed-seat rowboat or pedal boat accompanied by a buddy who is a swimmer".  Because these vessels are far less likely to capsize, an adult buddy is not a requirement.
• Canoe or other paddle craft:  Those not classified as swimmers can go canoeing if they share a canoe with a Swimmer Adult.

Additionally, these policies only apply "on calm water with little likelihood of capsizing or falling overboard".  So someone not classified as a swimmer would not be okay to buddy up with an adult swimmer for white water rafting for example.

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss02/#j

[UKScouterInCA]

On 7/26/2022 at 10:42 AM, InquisitiveScouter said:

Comments I heard from staff this past week:

<snip>

"I don't really know how to define a mammal."  Mammal Study MB Instructor at beginning of class.

<snip>

It feels so easy to define a mammal. Until you learn about the Duck Billed Platypus.

[BetterWithCheddar]

Apologies for digging up this old thread ~ I just find the economics of the situation very interesting. Has anyone experienced similar issues this year?

Working as a camp counselor used to be a great summer job, but I think there is less interest now that many school district calendars have crept into the summer. How many districts now offer summer classes or 'voluntary' (wink, wink) workouts for athletics participants? Even today's college students are pressured to have a series of good summer internships and not just one internship between their junior and senior years. Further, many council camps used to operate through mid-August. How many have shortened their seasons due to membership declines? There probably aren't as many summer job seekers looking for just 5-6 weeks of employment. I spent 9 summers workers on council camp staffs (ages 14-22) and it's hard to envision a scenario where that would make sense for my son today. It was a stretch for me back then.

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

Apologies for digging up this old thread ~ I just find the economics of the situation very interesting. Has anyone experienced similar issues this year?

Working as a camp counselor used to be a great summer job, but I think there is less interest now that many school district calendars have crept into the summer. How many districts now offer summer classes or 'voluntary' (wink, wink) workouts for athletics participants? Even today's college students are pressured to have a series of good summer internships and not just one internship between their junior and senior years. Further, many council camps used to operate through mid-August. How many have shortened their seasons due to membership declines? There probably aren't as many summer job seekers looking for just 5-6 weeks of employment. I spent 9 summers workers on council camp staffs (ages 14-22) and it's hard to envision a scenario where that would make sense for my son today. It was a stretch for me back then.

Agree with all of your observations.  I have been volunteering now for the past 5 weeks, and general feedback from unit leaders is also along the lines you lay out.  

Program has suffered also, due to lack of staffing to offer some events and merit badges.

HAB crews and Jamboree are taking away some of our more seasoned Scouts, as well, which is an additional hit to staffing.

 

[Tron]

On 7/16/2023 at 6:04 AM, BetterWithCheddar said:

Apologies for digging up this old thread ~ I just find the economics of the situation very interesting. Has anyone experienced similar issues this year?

Working as a camp counselor used to be a great summer job, but I think there is less interest now that many school district calendars have crept into the summer. How many districts now offer summer classes or 'voluntary' (wink, wink) workouts for athletics participants? Even today's college students are pressured to have a series of good summer internships and not just one internship between their junior and senior years. Further, many council camps used to operate through mid-August. How many have shortened their seasons due to membership declines? There probably aren't as many summer job seekers looking for just 5-6 weeks of employment. I spent 9 summers workers on council camp staffs (ages 14-22) and it's hard to envision a scenario where that would make sense for my son today. It was a stretch for me back then.

I think its the value or perhaps lack of value that is keeping people from volunteering as camp staff.

How many people who are going into the navy or merchant marine that would benefit from having lifeguarding time on their resume ever get asked to spend the summer after high school as a BSA lifeguard? 

How many old door kickers down at the local veterans club or witty old rascals at the local hunt club ever get asked to pass on all that bushcraft and woodcraft to the next generation? Those guys live for sharing their knowledge and experience, giving back to society is what kept a lot of them in the service. 

How many trade unions (which are constantly lamenting the lack of youth going into the trades) are getting calls to help out run a MB station at a camp for a week to give a scout a chance to learn what working in the trades can be like and do for them? 

How many gun clubs get visits from council shooting sports chairs? These guys are all big 2nd amendment types who believe the only problem with guns is that not enough people have proper training. I'd bet that my uncles gun club has more certified shooting instructors than every council in my state combined, but I've never heard the local council talk about recruiting any of those people, and some of them are RICH, they would pump SO much money into BSA shooting sports because they want share their love of shooting sports.