Why do we need a National Council?

[1980Scouter]

Why do we need a National Council? It takes so much money and you do not see much at the local level.

Replace it with a board of SE from each council who make and vote on standards. That is really all that matters is minimum standards across the county. With technology meetings could be zoom with a yearly in person. 

Have separate sub committees for projects. All LC would have a say in the BSA and its future.

HAB could be turned over to LC or form a separate non profit for each. They make money and can be self sustained. 

We could make Scouting much more affordable for all.

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

Because we need to keep the gravy train rolling!  Someone has to spend all that money coming in!  What do you want to do...give it all to lawyers? (wait...uh...nvm that) Might as well create a slew of non-value added jobs to dole that money out

And after an SE is pushed out of a council for incompetence (if only that would happen), where else will we put them to continue to collect towards their retirement?

Nope, gotta have those Regional/Service Territory jobs (what do they do again?) and positions at National to absorb them somewhere.

"Don't let it become a salaried organization: keep it a voluntary movement of patriotic service."  BP  https://www.boyscouttrail.com/library/lordbadenpowell.asp

[skeptic]

2 hours ago, 1980Scouter said:

Why do we need a National Council? It takes so much money and you do not see much at the local level.

Replace it with a board of SE from each council who make and vote on standards. That is really all that matters is minimum standards across the county. With technology meetings could be zoom with a yearly in person. 

Have separate sub committees for projects. All LC would have a say in the BSA and its future.

HAB could be turned over to LC or form a separate non profit for each. They make money and can be self sustained. 

We could make Scouting much more affordable for all.

 

The idea of making HA bases into NP orgs actually seems to me a viable thought.  As long as the focus is, well, focussed.  Opening them up to more non-scout groups could likely lower the costs to Scouting groups who would get priority.  And that also might include working out opening them to other World groups.  

 

[Eagle94-A1]

2 hours ago, skeptic said:

The idea of making HA bases into NP orgs actually seems to me a viable thought.  As long as the focus is, well, focussed.  Opening them up to more non-scout groups could likely lower the costs to Scouting groups who would get priority.  And that also might include working out opening them to other World groups.  

 

I know the two Scout Association camps I worked at in the UK were open to non-Scout groups. We had school groups from the UK, Belgium, and Germany use the camps. And of course we had Scouts from all over using them.

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

The idea of making HA bases into NP orgs actually seems to me a viable thought.  As long as the focus is, well, focussed.  Opening them up to more non-scout groups could likely lower the costs to Scouting groups who would get priority.  And that also might include working out opening them to other World groups.  

HA non-profits? 

• Separating is smart to legally split resources to avoid having deep, deep pockets that bait lawsuits.  Creating targeted non-profits would be fine.
• My ideal would be that National Parks create the idea of Adventure Bases that schedule, outfit and support non-profit youth organizations that teach outdoor skills and provide outdoor experiences. 
  • Philmont National Park.  Summit National Park.  Each would have trek paths.  Each would have outfitting.  Each would have specialty sub-camps.  
  • Northern Tier is already surrounded by massive national parks with many outfitters that can easily support scout-sized groups.  
  • Sea Base ... I hate saying it as I love Sea Base, but Sea Base could be either a dedicated non-profit or it's role could be absorbed by existing for-profit outfitters.  ... The last time we sent a crew down ... Sea Base contracted with a private ship to sail the scouts.  Sea Base provided the food, some gear, showers and a bed the night before the trek started.  So, the "Sea Base" experience was very limited.

Replace BSA with LC association

A strong argument can be made here, but replacements would need to be found.  It's not just about standards.

• Associations staffed by LC volunteers
  • We have previous good examples here such as how the 2011 GTA was created.
  • LCs could recommend volunteers that participate in national standards and associations targeting:  uniform, advancement, etc
• Program and standards
  • Perfectly setup for group authoring via volunteer associations 
• Supply
  • Patches would need approved / designed suppliers
    • We used classb.com for years.  There are others.
  • Provide standard artwork for official patches.
  • Provide standards and recommended vendors.  Recommend units buy from the same vendor.  
    • Google:  tan tactical shirt short sleeve   ... or tan explorer short sleeve shirt
    • Google:  olive green canvas tactical shorts ... or olive green canvas tactical pants
• Hard infrastructure ... Some things do need more than just associations.  Examples
  • Records database
  • Background checks ... potentially could be done by each LC now
  • Insurance ... potentially could be done by each LC now

BSA Membership

Perhaps we need to re-think being a registered BSA member.  Rather, BSA is really a records-keeping organization (and has always been) .  ... yeah, we have a record of this volunteer.  Yep, they submitted an application.  Yep, they had a background check.  Yep, they are associated with this city / charter org / scouting unit.  Yep, this scout earned XXX rank and these badges.  Here's a report on the years of their involvement.

The legal documents really need to reflect reality, as there is no way BSA has ever or could ever effectively treat their massive volunteer base as employees.  BSA needs to re-think the structure to get the legal structure to match reality.

... side note ... It still baffles me.  BSA has liability as the volunteers are viewed as acting agents (employees).  But, the agents pay to be members inside BSA.  So, BSA really has no employment role with them.  It's really strange.  

 

[skeptic]

47 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

HA non-profits? 

• Separating is smart to legally split resources to avoid having deep, deep pockets that bait lawsuits.  Creating targeted non-profits would be fine.
• My ideal would be that National Parks create the idea of Adventure Bases that schedule, outfit and support non-profit youth organizations that teach outdoor skills and provide outdoor experiences. 
  • Philmont National Park.  Summit National Park.  Each would have trek paths.  Each would have outfitting.  Each would have specialty sub-camps.  
  • Northern Tier is already surrounded by massive national parks with many outfitters that can easily support scout-sized groups.  
  • Sea Base ... I hate saying it as I love Sea Base, but Sea Base could be either a dedicated non-profit or it's role could be absorbed by existing for-profit outfitters.  ... The last time we sent a crew down ... Sea Base contracted with a private ship to sail the scouts.  Sea Base provided the food, some gear, showers and a bed the night before the trek started.  So, the "Sea Base" experience was very limited.

Replace BSA with LC association

A strong argument can be made here, but replacements would need to be found.  It's not just about standards.

• Associations staffed by LC volunteers
  • We have previous good examples here such as how the 2011 GTA was created.
  • LCs could recommend volunteers that participate in national standards and associations targeting:  uniform, advancement, etc
• Program and standards
  • Perfectly setup for group authoring via volunteer associations 
• Supply
  • Patches would need approved / designed suppliers
    • We used classb.com for years.  There are others.
  • Provide standard artwork for official patches.
  • Provide standards and recommended vendors.  Recommend units buy from the same vendor.  
    • Google:  tan tactical shirt short sleeve   ... or tan explorer short sleeve shirt
    • Google:  olive green canvas tactical shorts ... or olive green canvas tactical pants
• Hard infrastructure ... Some things do need more than just associations.  Examples
  • Records database
  • Background checks ... potentially could be done by each LC now
  • Insurance ... potentially could be done by each LC now

BSA Membership

Perhaps we need to re-think being a registered BSA member.  Rather, BSA is really a records-keeping organization (and has always been) .  ... yeah, we have a record of this volunteer.  Yep, they submitted an application.  Yep, they had a background check.  Yep, they are associated with this city / charter org / scouting unit.  Yep, this scout earned XXX rank and these badges.  Here's a report on the years of their involvement.

The legal documents really need to reflect reality, as there is no way BSA has ever or could ever effectively treat their massive volunteer base as employees.  BSA needs to re-think the structure to get the legal structure to match reality.

... side note ... It still baffles me.  BSA has liability as the volunteers are viewed as acting agents (employees).  But, the agents pay to be members inside BSA.  So, BSA really has no employment role with them.  It's really strange.  

 

The volunteer "as employee" is I think the result of the legal system skewing the actual status and having the courts agree.  It is, as pointed out, not reality.  Are the coaches of youth sports and their helpers employees of the leagues?  Are the volunteers at the Y or BGC and so on employees if they do not get paid?  Lots of room for some actual common judgment on these things, and too often we let the slick tongues lawyer corrupt the real meaning and picture.

[johnsch322]

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

The volunteer "as employee" is I think the result of the legal system skewing the actual status and having the courts agree.  It is, as pointed out, not reality.  Are the coaches of youth sports and their helpers employees of the leagues?  Are the volunteers at the Y or BGC and so on employees if they do not get paid?  Lots of room for some actual common judgment on these things, and too often we let the slick tongues lawyer corrupt the real meaning and picture.

Unless an exception applies, an organization typically is responsible for damages caused by its agents. An agency relationship may exist when an organization has control, or should have had control, over an individual’s actions. This concept extends to volunteers, especially if they are doing work under the direction of a nonprofit manager and on behalf of the nonprofit.

[gpurlee]

7 hours ago, 1980Scouter said:

Why do we need a National Council? It takes so much money and you do not see much at the local level.

I have spent my career in not-for-profit management at the local and regional level. The organizations included Goodwill, Easter Seals and Volunteers of America.

All of them used a very similar model to the BSA of a national organization providing charters to local affiliates. Coincidentally, all were formed in approximately the same time period and this was the model that was being used at that time.

At its best, a strong national organization provides a variety of functions and services that would be very difficult for a local affiliate or collection of affiliates to replicate on their own. These include:

• Developing and enforcing consistent organizational standards
• Serving as a uniformed national voice for the public and other stakeholders
• Providing specialized legal and human resources that local affiliates could not afford on their own
• Developing a consistent brand and providing marketing expertise and resources
• Providing a training program or academy for professionals
• Collecting and sharing information such as statistics and the development of benchmarks for affiliates to assess their own performance
• Securing national grants and other resources that can be utilized by local affiliates.
• Conducting annual conferences and on-going workshops for professional growth
• Development and maintenance of a national website and social media presence
• Developing and promoting best practices.

 

In my experience, a strong national organization was invaluable to the local affiliates.  A lot of that work is invisible to the general public. 

Having said that, can a national organization become bloated and out of touch with the local situation? Of course. Can it fail to provide meaningful support and value? Absolutely.

I think that the BSA is at a point where it has to take a deep breath and look at the role and the value added by the national office. The world has changed markedly for the BSA. Financial pressures from the bankruptcy as well as deep membership losses from the pandemic, loss of chartered partners and other factors will necessitate that it makes adjustments. 

And this will not just be limited to the national level as local councils struggle to adapt to a very different future. We are clearly entering a major transition period where the old operational model may no longer function, and the new model has yet to be developed. 

So, hang onto your seats!

 

[ThenNow]

13 minutes ago, gpurlee said:

At its best, a strong national organization provides a variety of functions and services that would be very difficult for a local affiliate or collection of affiliates to replicate on their own. These include:

• Developing and enforcing consistent organizational standards
• Providing specialized legal and human resources that local affiliates could not afford on their own
• Providing a training program or academy for professionals
• Collecting and sharing information such as statistics and the development of benchmarks for affiliates to assess their own performance
• Conducting annual conferences and on-going workshops for professional growth
• Developing and promoting best practices.

For me, the above components go directly to the YP priority. That is my #1 concern. If BSA breaks up, who will ensure the enhancement of YP or even the enforcement of it? That scares the bejeebers out of me. I think it would be a disaster, not to mention your other well-articulated organizational benefits of a national organization. I am no fan of centralization as a governmental construct, but this is not a good context for "federalism" (which I love and too often miss these days).

14 minutes ago, gpurlee said:

I think that the BSA is at a point where it has to take a deep breath and look at the role and the value added by the national office. The world has changed markedly for the BSA. Financial pressures from the bankruptcy as well as deep membership losses from the pandemic, loss of chartered partners and other factors will necessitate that it makes adjustments. 

And this will not just be limited to the national level as local councils struggle to adapt to a very different future. We are clearly entering a major transition period where the old operational model may no longer function, and the new model has yet to be developed. 

Yes and amen. Time to pass the collection plate. That's just a phrase and no reference to raising funds or popcorn sales. 

[fred8033]

2 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

Unless an exception applies, an organization typically is responsible for damages caused by its agents. An agency relationship may exist when an organization has control, or should have had control, over an individual’s actions. This concept extends to volunteers, especially if they are doing work under the direction of a nonprofit manager and on behalf of the nonprofit.

Agreed and well-said. 

The trouble is looking back ... 1950s ... 1980s ... I really question whether courts and lawyers then would have interpreted as broadly as now being applied retroactively.    ... BUT ... that's an old argument that will require pages and pages to re-hash.

Time to restructure the relationship between BSA and the volunteers.  BSA as a records-only organization seems like a possible good idea.  LCs could have an association that forms / authors / votes on standards and policies.  One standard is that to be a registered member in a troop, you need to make a record of your leadership in that unit.  An application renamed as a unit membership record.  The record is maintained by some new larger common-organization, but that larger common-organization is not treating you as an agent of their larger organization.

Analogy ... many companies contract out Human Resources, Payroll, Legal, facilities, janitorial, etc.  That does not make the company employees agents of the HR / payroll / legal / facilities / janitorial companies.  ... Similar, local councils could contract out the record keeping to an organization hired / contracted by the LC association to manage their application / advancement records.  ... extension ... this could be extended down to LC / UNIT level.  ... then agency is really at the unit level where it always has been.  ... It's important to make the legal situation meet the reality of how the program works.  BSA and LCs never have had staffing control over units.

 

Edited July 16, 2022 by fred8033

[1980Scouter]

We need to make Scouts BSA more affordable.  With some LC charging fees on top of national it can get expensive to be a scout.

Eliminate the excess ie national and excessive LC staffs.

[skeptic]

Not sure about National, though most seem already gone, but our local council has cut staff by about 70 percent.

 

[PACAN]

There is a place for a National HQ...question is what functions NEED to be done there.  If they have downsized as much as skeptic says, what aren't they doing that needs to be done and what are they doing that doesn't need to be done.

Companies downsize and shrink everyday, some eventually fade into oblivion.

The BSA has about 250 councils....over 50 have less than 1000 youth and another 50 less than 1500 youth.   Lots of infrastructure and costs associated with maintaining this structure.  My understanding is that national has no real power to force mergers of LCs

The overall membership is at its lowest level in the past 75 years.  Less customers would seem that it's time to evaluate the infrastructure needed to support a lesser customer base.  Hope springs eternal that membership will return but if it does, then you react to that.

The UMC sponsors about 20% of all units and probably about 20% of the remaining membership.  With the church decision to no longer sponsoring units, what is the impact?  How many units will be able to fins a new sponsor and I've heard no one who thinks being sponsored by their LC is a good solution.  Any of you heard of how/if your LCs are going to do this?

 

All is, as always,  JMHO.

 

[5thGenTexan]

1 hour ago, PACAN said:

 

The UMC sponsors about 20% of all units and probably about 20% of the remaining membership.  With the church decision to no longer sponsoring units, what is the impact?  How many units will be able to fins a new sponsor and I've heard no one who thinks being sponsored by their LC is a good solution.  Any of you heard of how/if your LCs are going to do this?

 

All is, as always,  JMHO.

 

I have heard in my council they are going to pawn it off on District Commissioners.  Of course I dont believe they have a plan.

[gpurlee]

2 hours ago, PACAN said:

The UMC sponsors about 20% of all units and probably about 20% of the remaining membership.  With the church decision to no longer sponsoring units, what is the impact?  How many units will be able to fins a new sponsor and I've heard no one who thinks being sponsored by their LC is a good solution.  Any of you heard of how/if your LCs are going to do this?

 

In our council, UMC represents closer to 30% of both membership and total units. Our council is clearly reluctant to endorse the affiliate model. Their stated concerns are a lack of professional staff to oversee the process, increased costs such as accounting and auditing and a very undermanned commissioner staff to visit and monitor units.  The national guidance apparently indicates that it should be volunteers who approve leadership, ensure youth protection is in place and fulfill the other duties of a chartered organization. Their strong preference appears to be that UMC affiliated units seek alternative chartered organizations. Unfortunately, the council seems to be willing to walk away from more than a one-hundred-year partnership at this point despite urgings from the national council. If the affiliate model is forced upon them, council leadership has suggested that the "council units" may be assessed a (significant) fee to cover the additional expense to the council. 

Given the loss of many of the evangelical churches, the LDS Church, most schools, the Elks, several Roman Catholic churches (at least in our area) among others, one has to wonder how many chartered organizations remain willing and available to sponsor Scouting if the UMC is no longer a significant sponsor?