fred8033 Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 Yeah. Probably time for me to bow out. The conversation is going too tangential and not relevant to the original post. I believe we have a failure to communicate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InquisitiveScouter Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 17 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said: Still no movement on HR 4777 https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/4777/text https://www.opensecrets.org/federal-lobbying/clients/bills?bid=hr4777-117&id=D000022208&year=2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vol_scouter Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 1 minute ago, InquisitiveScouter said: How many councils have you served in to make this assessment?? Not many councils but very active in one council on the EB and EC as well as numerous committees. I have served on and chaired national committees and been asked to attend parts of some National Executive Committee meetings and have attended National Executive Board meetings both by invitation. Professionals work with a volunteer chair to develop a list of nominees for the committee and, after two years, the chair. Most of the time it is a mutual work but I have seen chairs be insistent on certain people. It is uncommon that the professional gets to select the people that they want. All national standing committees are chaired by NEC or NEB members. The NEC can assign the chairs. Councils are more political than is the National Council as to committee assessments. I stand by my ascertains as I have been a part of the national committees. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InquisitiveScouter Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 3 minutes ago, fred8033 said: LOL. One. Never been thrown out. I've seen a fair number of people red-listed by scouting professionals. It's usually because of conflict or personality issues. I try not to ask too much because even from the outside it's usually fairly obvious. On the other hand, volunteer recruitment has always happened by volunteers (committee chairs, membership committees, etc) ... by the volunteers. ... It's pretty consistent with what I said. BSA is a volunteer organization mostly run by volunteers. Yes, professionals can uninvite you to the party, but it's the volunteers that recruit and manage the other volunteers. I have seen some thrown out as well... many for good cause. It's the internal power politics I think @Eagle94-A1 refers to. Stuff that the guidebooks don't talk about, but that is there plain as day. Never been thrown out, either, but have seen a fair share of unethical behavior from volunteers and professionals. You can paint folks from both groups with that brush... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vol_scouter Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 7 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said: I have seen some thrown out as well... many for good cause. It's the internal power politics I think @Eagle94-A1 refers to. Stuff that the guidebooks don't talk about, but that is there plain as day. Never been thrown out, either, but have seen a fair share of unethical behavior from volunteers and professionals. You can paint folks from both groups with that brush... You are so correct. There are mainly outstanding people in Scouting both in the volunteer and professional ranks. A few unethical or egotistical individuals can taint the vision of the whole. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred8033 Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 34 minutes ago, vol_scouter said: It is uncommon that the professional gets to select the people that they want. All national standing committees are chaired by NEC or NEB members. The NEC can assign the chairs. Councils are more political than is the National Council as to committee assessments. Just to confirm ... NEC / NEB are volunteers. Beyond receiving lunches and incidentals, these are volunteers. People assume "executive" means paid. BSA is very much a volunteer organization. Councils are political. I've been on council committee for 5+ years (longer unofficially) and district for 14+ years. ... Amazing how time goes fast, but I'm still far junior compared to the 30+ year council volunteers. ... I've seen the politics, but it's mainly the politics of people who can't work with other people. OR, people who overstep and make it personal. ... Similar to how these discussion can become personal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yknot Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 27 minutes ago, fred8033 said: Just to confirm ... NEC / NEB are volunteers. Beyond receiving lunches and incidentals, these are volunteers. People assume "executive" means paid. BSA is very much a volunteer organization. Councils are political. I've been on council committee for 5+ years (longer unofficially) and district for 14+ years. ... Amazing how time goes fast, but I'm still far junior compared to the 30+ year council volunteers. ... I've seen the politics, but it's mainly the politics of people who can't work with other people. OR, people who overstep and make it personal. ... Similar to how these discussion can become personal. I frankly don't care, within reason, if people are paid or volunteer. I care much more about whether they are doing a good job. I think in scouts we have seen that there is no monopoly at the top, on the part of either paid professionals or volunteers, regarding poor leadership, miscalculation, and mismanagement of the organization. The good folks that have been there trying to swim upstream have just kept getting pushed to shore apparently. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsch322 Posted July 26, 2022 Author Share Posted July 26, 2022 Well I can say that maybe the plan has not been approved because no one can come to agreement about anything LOL!! 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred8033 Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 4 hours ago, yknot said: I frankly don't care, within reason, if people are paid or volunteer. The discussion was started because It was asserted the fundamental problem is that the professionals manage the volunteers ... and that professionals want to continue to direct volunteers ... and professionals hand-pick volunteers ... and put yes-men on committees. It is the vast majority of cases, it's just not true. What I've seen are higher tiers (professional or volunteer) excited when someone skilled and competent steps up to help. I've known lots of BSA professionals. DEs make squat for money. The middle level does not do much better. The SEs and top-level national do ok, but I doubt much better than other orgs at that level. 4 hours ago, yknot said: I think in scouts we have seen that there is no monopoly at the top, on the part of either paid professionals or volunteers, regarding poor leadership, miscalculation, and mismanagement of the organization. The good folks that have been there trying to swim upstream have just kept getting pushed to shore, apparently. I can agree. There are definitely things that frustrate me with BSA. But then again, it happens in any organization that you get deeply involved in, paid or volunteer. Even more in volunteer organizations, as people tie their personal self-fulfillment and self-value from being involved and being heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yknot Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 14 minutes ago, fred8033 said: The discussion was started because It was asserted the fundamental problem is that the professionals manage the volunteers ... and that professionals want to continue to direct volunteers ... and professionals hand-pick volunteers ... and put yes-men on committees. It is the vast majority of cases, it's just not true. What I've seen are higher tiers (professional or volunteer) excited when someone skilled and competent steps up to help. I've known lots of BSA professionals. DEs make squat for money. The middle level does not do much better. The SEs and top-level national do ok, but I doubt much better than other orgs at that level. I can agree. There are definitely things that frustrate me with BSA. But then again, it happens in any organization that you get deeply involved in, paid or volunteer. Even more in volunteer organizations, as people tie their personal self-fulfillment and self-value from being involved and being heard. I can't agree. These kinds of things don't repeatedly happen in well run organizations. Just one example : the CO structure has been dysfunctional for decades and that dysfunction helped enable child predators to infiltrate the organization. BSA has never addressed it. It took an outside organization -- the UMC -- to force a substantive change as part of a bankruptcy proceeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThenNow Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 (edited) Hot off the press. Have only opened to the title page. You heard it here first. Somebody might want to open the Mother thread. Pushing 300 pages Wee... https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/9ba8739e-283b-4ce4-b328-5a1eda289f30_10136.pdf 1568973928_BSA-Decision.7_29.22.pdf Edited July 29, 2022 by ThenNow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle1993 Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 Opened up new thread here Locking this one down. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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