Why hasn't the plan been approved yet?

[mrjohns2]

On 7/24/2022 at 1:16 PM, fred8033 said:

My BSA experience is that BSA does not manage volunteers.

Maybe not directly, but via policies, guidelines, and other required rules makes me feel pretty managed. 

[vol_scouter]

1 hour ago, mrjohns2 said:

Maybe not directly, but via policies, guidelines, and other required rules makes me feel pretty managed. 

Those policies, guidelines, and other required rules are NOT promulgated by professionals but rather by volunteers on committees that are staffed by professionals who have NO vote.  Those committee recommendations are sent to the National Executive Board who makes the final approval to cause implementation.  Volunteers run the National Council - not the professional staff.  

[Eagle94-A1]

10 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

Those policies, guidelines, and other required rules are NOT promulgated by professionals but rather by volunteers on committees that are staffed by professionals who have NO vote.  Those committee recommendations are sent to the National Executive Board who makes the final approval to cause implementation.  Volunteers run the National Council - not the professional staff.  

Do you honestly believe that volunteers are not handpicked? Do you honestly believe that professionals will not get "Yes men" on those committees? Do you honestly believe that if the volunteers go against the professionals, they will either be removed or ignored?

Anyone remember the Chicago Area Council  incident a few years back?

Anyone remember the 411 Cub Scout Committee June 2015 to December 2016 program?

Anyone remember Philmont being mortgaged without the volunteers learning about it  after the fact?

And these are a few items on the national level.  Yep Chicago became a national issue when they intervened to overrule the council executive board members.

[fred8033]

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Do you honestly believe that volunteers are not handpicked? Do you honestly believe that professionals will not get "Yes men" on those committees? Do you honestly believe that if the volunteers go against the professionals, they will either be removed or ignored?

Looking for absolutist yes/no?  Out of 270+ councils and millions of people, you will always find examples to support any conclusion.  It's a faulty generalization to represent the program that way.

Also, the question was "volunteer management".   i.e.  who oversaw the volunteers that committed the offenses?  

BSA has ALWAYS been a volunteer led organization at every level.  

The key points related to volunteer mgmt of the offenders are 

• Key three ... the key concept
• guidebooks - how the program works
• hiring / firing volunteers

Guidebooks - This define how the program works.  

• Unit - Pack - https://www.scouting.org/programs/cub-scouts/pack-committee-resources/
  • Purchasable.  Not available in PDF yet.
• Unit - Troop - http://www.commissioner-bsa.org/kit/Troop Committee Guidebook 34505.pdf
  • chapter 4
• District - https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/mission/pdf/34739.pdf
• Council - https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/mission/pdf/33071.pdf

Hire / fire - Hiring is a weak term for volunteers as they are not compensated. 

• Unit hire / fire ... "Hiring" is always the job of the charter org head (CO) or their representative (COR).    Paid professionals do NOT select or hire unit volunteers.   ... CO selects and oversees the volunteers.  ... "firing" is also the COR/CO.  That has been the topic of dozens and dozens of threads here when unit issues happen.  ... BSA does have the right to remove BSA membership when things go really wrong.   BSA is very similar to the concept of commissioning professionals.  You can't work if you are not commissioned.  Well, you can't be a unit volunteer if BSA removes your membership.  
• District / council ... it's the repeated pattern.  My council committee work happened because I bubbled up from the district committee.  Others have been selected by selected council committees to help, but that is usually by selection of a council committee chair or vote of the committee.  Yes at times the paid professional can help suggestion / influence.  But it's always under the oversight of volunteers.  ... District volunteer selection is done by the district chair (volunteer) with the guidance of the district membership chair (volunteer).  ...
• Council - Paid professionals are hired / fired by the council board.  BSA national commissions (approves as eligible) but does not hire / fire council paid professionals.  Council paid professionals can recommend, but the council board (volunteers) oversee the hiring firing.  

Key three - here is a strongly repeated and followed pattern that is well known.  The key three are two lead volunteers and a paid professional that works a as a resource to the two volunteers ... At the unit level, there is no "paid professional", but we still use the term key-three.  

From bottom up.  Unit key three are the Charter org head (CO) or their representative (or COR) with the SM and the Committee chair.  All volunteers.  There is no paid professional in unit key three.  There is no paid involvement in the unit.  

District ...  The "key three" repeating pattern continues, but adds the first paid professional.  District key three are the district chair (volunteer), a district commissioner (volunteer) overseeing all the unit commissioners and a district exec (paid).  The DE is the resource under the chair and commissioner.    The DE does not do unit volunteer mgmt.  The DE NEVER does district committee volunteer mgmt.  .... The DE might suggestion, consult, recommend, but it's under volunteers at all levels.  ...  Only when it gets really ugly, then the only DE power is to recommend revoking BSA membership.  

Council ... This pattern repeats again: council president (volunteer), council commissioner (volunteer) and council exec (SE scout exec).  The SE is working under the direction of the council board (volunteers).  

To address the question of "volunteer management" as professionals get their "yes men" is over simplified bunk.  It does not address the question.  It's also not how the organization works. 

[Eagle94-A1]

@fred johnson,

Please note I was commenting on this statement.

14 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

Those policies, guidelines, and other required rules are NOT promulgated by professionals but rather by volunteers on committees that are staffed by professionals who have NO vote.  Those committee recommendations are sent to the National Executive Board who makes the final approval to cause  implementation.  Volunteers run the National Council - not the professional staff.  

And I stand by what I say. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

59 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

District ...  The "key three" repeating pattern continues, but adds the first paid professional.  District key three are the district chair (volunteer), a district commissioner (volunteer) overseeing all the unit commissioners and a district exec (paid).  The DE is the resource under the chair and commissioner.    The DE does not do unit volunteer mgmt.  The DE NEVER does district committee volunteer mgmt.  .... The DE might suggestion, consult, recommend, but it's under volunteers at all levels.  ...  Only when it gets really ugly, then the only DE power is to recommend revoking BSA membership.

Um...errr... No

I would that this were the case.  And this is how it is supposed to be.  But it is not reality.  Not in any of the six councils I have been active in.  And it is, somewhat, a spectrum.  In those six, two have been closer to the ideal you outline above, two closer to some sort of SE dictatorship (including current council), and two in the middle.

In our council, the SE can and does red-line (or blacklist...use the color of your choice)  volunteers from District and Council volunteer positions routinely, without revoking their BSA memberships.  Here, be a kool-aid drinker, or be excluded from meaningful service in those venues.

[ThenNow]

How did we get here from "Why hasn't the plan been approved yet?"

🤔

[InquisitiveScouter]

2 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

How did we get here from "Why hasn't the plan been approved yet?"

🤔

[johnsch322]

"The long and winding road
That leads to your door
Will never disappear
I've seen that road before
It always leads me here
Lead me to your door"

Beatles

[ThenNow]

22 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

"The long and winding road
That leads to your door
Will never disappear
I've seen that road before
It always leads me here
Lead me to your door"

The punchline being, what is behind door #3 where Carol Merrill is standing? I don't know if I want to open it.

[InquisitiveScouter]

Still no movement on HR 4777

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/4777/text

[fred8033]

2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Um...errr... No

I would that this were the case.  And this is how it is supposed to be.  But it is not reality.  Not in any of the six councils I have been active in.  And it is, somewhat, a spectrum.  In those six, two have been closer to the ideal you outline above, two closer to some sort of SE dictatorship (including current council), and two in the middle.

In our council, the SE can and does red-line (or blacklist...use the color of your choice)  volunteers from District and Council volunteer positions routinely, without revoking their BSA memberships.  Here, be a kool-aid drinker, or be excluded from meaningful service in those venues.

There is also being a conspiracy theorist believing in sinister forces around every corner and in every shadow.  The world is never that clear cut.  

In reality, it is far closer to the guidebooks than not.  

Edited July 26, 2022 by fred8033

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 minute ago, fred8033 said:

There's being a kool-aid drinker, but there is also being a conspiracy theorist believing in sinister forces around every corner.  The world is never that clear cut.  

In reality, it is far closer to the guidebooks than not.  

How many councils have you served in to make this assessment??

[Eagle94-A1]

3 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

How many councils have you served in to make this assessment??

I been in 5 councils, 6 including the national council, and worked in 2, as well as for national supply. I have volunteered on the council level, and have friends who have volunteered on the regional and national levels. I stand by what I said.

7 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Do you honestly believe that volunteers are not handpicked? Do you honestly believe that professionals will not get "Yes men" on those committees? Do you honestly believe that if the volunteers go against the professionals, they will either be removed or ignored?

Anyone remember the Chicago Area Council  incident a few years back?

Anyone remember the 411 Cub Scout Committee June 2015 to December 2016 program?

Anyone remember Philmont being mortgaged without the volunteers learning about it  after the fact?

And these are a few items on the national level.  Yep Chicago became a national issue when they intervened to overrule the council executive board members.

And how many here discuss issues like the above that are done on the council level?

[fred8033]

14 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

How many councils have you served in to make this assessment??

LOL.  One.  Perhaps I'm lucky to be associated with a really good council and really good people.

I've seen a fair number of people red-listed by scouting professionals.  It's usually because of conflict or personality issues.  I try not to ask too much because even from the outside it's usually fairly obvious.  

On the other hand, volunteer recruitment has always happened by volunteers (committee chairs, membership committees, etc)  ... by the volunteers.   ... It's pretty consistent with what I said.  BSA is a volunteer organization mostly run by volunteers.  Yes, professionals can uninvite you to the party, but it's the volunteers that recruit and manage the other volunteers.  

Edited July 26, 2022 by fred8033