BSA CSA: Concealment or Trustworthy, Loyal...?

[ThenNow]

1 hour ago, vol_scouter said:

It is my belief that the BSA did not wish to have the records for precisely the reason that happened after the Oregon case.  Attorneys used the records to find potential clients from what has been intimated to me.  

1 hour ago, vol_scouter said:

I know that a major reason that the BSA had never released the information was this fear.

Risk management in action, which I understand. Public exposure —> Legal risk = financial risk + reputational risk —> deterioration of public trust —> membership decline = financial risk. No? At some point, I think we have to accept this equation as fact. In and of itself it’s not an indictment, but a business mindset decision tree. When you see it on paper next to and weighed against the statements below, it sure looks a lot like an indictment. IMNSHO.

1 hour ago, vol_scouter said:

For someone such as @ThenNow , who would likely argue that some sort of scrubbed information could have been released and that someone in the regional office should have found out about the local Scout Executive’s corruption.

Correct. Not just argue, but sincerely wonder why leaders didn’t consider it IF they actually didn’t. I can’t imagine it was never contemplated or mulled over by some leader. If never given a single solitary thought, what does that say. “If we release these or cross-reference this pattern and start ‘warning’ people, we have a lot to lose. (See above) If we don’t, and maintain tight, inner circle confidentiality, the benefit is tangible and the ‘loss’ speculative/uncertain.” Loss being innocence via more abuse. What might they have been thinking, and I mean that literally and sincerely?

Edited July 3, 2022 by ThenNow

[ThenNow]

I beg your continued indulgence for my horrible typing on this thread. I’m even worse pecking it out on the phone than the full-size keyboard.  

[vol_scouter]

@ThenNow  From my understanding, there were many professionals who felt that something constructive should result from the information in the IVF.  After seeing the ones that were publicly released, the paucity of information, especially for older cases, would tend to negate any useful study.  My understanding is that legal counsel and PR were rather emphatic to keep everything behind lock and key.   So feel better that efforts have been made.  I feel that examining the files and consulting with experts could have provided enhanced warnings and some keys.  
 

The 1960’s and early 1970’s was a time when people tended to deny that such things were occurring, though the BSA and other organizations knew that it was.  Hard to remember the attitude of the time but it might have required convincing.  
 

In your case, it is obvious to me that there was concealment.  Not sure that applies to all cases.  
 

Many mistakes were made that had tragic effects.  

[ThenNow]

9 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

there were many professionals who felt that something constructive should result from the information in the IVF.  After seeing the ones that were publicly released, the paucity of information, especially for older cases, would tend to negate any useful study.

Please explain how you’re defining “paucity of information.” As to study, setting aside using the information to aid prosecution of perpetrators (and any negligent BSA folk) and protecting and caring for the specific boys/girls, what “useful study” do you mean? For me, simple pattern analysis and recognition across the data in the 11 files I read would have helped form profiles of perpetrator behaviors, locus of crimes, traits of vulnerable children victims, and contexts ripe for abuse. That’s all you’d need to conclude, “Huh. This is a pattern. We might want to let people know.” AND, I’m just talking about the cases I read which were all known by the several Districts, LC and Region. The refrain of, “Only Ernst & Co at National know about this,” is completely inapplicable when you have consistency of personnel across a District, LC and Region involved in multiple cases over a 5 year period. The left hand did know what the right hand is doing. We fail to do a proper review of this matter if we only look at individual cases or the IVF overall. We have to discuss and analyze the layers of process and people that were involved. The list of BSA and CO folk who touched the 1973 case that applies to mine is long. A lot of people knew a lot about a lot of these case over a relatively compressed timeframe. The data is not 100% siloed. Inaction took place up and down the chain, IMNSHO.

9 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

The 1960’s and early 1970’s was a time when people tended to deny that such things were occurring, though the BSA and other organizations knew that it was.  Hard to remember the attitude of the time but it might have required convincing.  

Agreed. We had girls in our high school “go visit their aunt” for several months, obviously pregnant. (Catholic school and community.) No mention was made of it. However, in my German/Irish neighborhood, if someone had an idea that a guy was either messing with someone’s sister, picking on a buddy’s kid brother or there was a “perv” living in such and so house, or druggies creeping around the waterworks building at the lakefront, people knew and people did something about it. The difference, as I see it, between this community-level vigilance and the BSA CSA cases during the same time period is intentional institutional insulation. Back to my discussion of risk management, this is not a judgement on its face. This is me trying to understand the decision making process by comparing the examples I noted using the mindset of the times. I can’t find another reason for the different behavior. Oh. For any who remember, I forbade my younger brothers from joining Scouts, knowing they would be at risk. I didn’t say why, but I effectively protected them. I cared only about their safety and had no other skin in the game. 

9 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

In your case, it is obvious to me that there was concealment.  Not sure that applies to all cases.

Yeah. I do too. Perhaps. I’m not sure either, but we do have to consider more than just the overarching IVF files as an amorphous body of vague data from which to draw a conclusion of concealment or not. How many cases of what type were there in each District, LC, CO, Region during the various time periods. I’m not asking someone to do that here or suggesting anyone else needs to do so. I did it and it enhanced my belief that duty to warn and protect was breached. When I saw there were 8+ cases around me during a 5 year period I found it compelling. I’m still ciphering it all out, though.

[Eagle1970]

As I have posted elsewhere, my BSA summer camp abuse occurred after several weeks of prior campers clearly experienced my abuser's tactics.  When I arrived and signed up for his merit badge, other scouts (who were attending multiple weeks) told me that he was a pervert and queer.  He was quite comfortable at his little hideaway in the woods.  If BSA didn't know, they certainly should have known his actions were inappropriate.  They did not remove or reassign him.

I don't know what that means, legally.  But had they not concealed his behavior, I would not have been abused.

 

[Tron]

19 minutes ago, Eagle1970 said:

As I have posted elsewhere, my BSA summer camp abuse occurred after several weeks of prior campers clearly experienced my abuser's tactics.  When I arrived and signed up for his merit badge, other scouts (who were attending multiple weeks) told me that he was a pervert and queer.  He was quite comfortable at his little hideaway in the woods.  If BSA didn't know, they certainly should have known his actions were inappropriate.  They did not remove or reassign him.

I don't know what that means, legally.  But had they not concealed his behavior, I would not have been abused.

 

There is a lot to unpack here. I am going to assume that you were a scout in the 60's and 70's based on your alias; and assuming that is true I struggle with your narrative. Those of us old enough to remember how perverts and "queer" folk were treated prior to the 1990s know that toleration would have been a dream for them compared to the outright romper stomping and GTFO of town treatment they took from everyone in society. 

[Eagle1970]

Really?  I bare my soul and you "struggle" with it?  I don't come on here to be questioned.  But for what it's worth, I have the names and addresses of 2 scouts who told me that.  How about you go troll elsewhere?

[Tron]

We literally just wrapped up LGBT "Q" + month. Q = Queer, and the point of everything about last month and the panels, discussions, wokeness was to recognize people who identify as that were treated in the past. There are all of these narratives around the abuse where these queer folk were supposedly ignored, covered up for, etc ... but at the same time roughly 5% of the population just held rallies and parades where part of the whole thing was to bring the other 95% of the population to task over how we brutalized and had absolutely no toleration for their existence let alone presence. 

There are 2 conflicting narratives going on. You're the one who has the narrative that the person who abused you "was a pervert and queer." Help me to understand how at a time when anyone overtly perverted or queer, let alone both could walk down the street without getting the shit kicked out of them was tolerated and ignored. 

[Eagle1970]

I never said I called my abuser a queer or pervert.  These days, I'm very aware of LGBTQ+ issues, as one of my children identifies as such.  And they are not an abuser in any way. 

What I said is that other scouts who had already been at camp referred to my abuser as a "pervert" and "queer".  In the 60's, queer was defined a little differently, than today.  My recollection is that it typically only meant a male who likes males.

Let me beam myself back and tell my 13 year-old fellow scouts that they should have actually referred to him as a "serial child sexual predator".

Next, there were no "streets" in the world of my abuse.  There were trails and encampments that turned out to be perfect for my abuser.  The couple of times I saw him with other leaders, he appeared to blend in just fine.  The one time I called him by his first name, in front of other leaders, he grabbed me aside and threatened me.  So, he did not go around parading that he was a predator.  He tried to hide it and blend in.  But he failed to fool other scouts, who were onto him.  I was young and in need of attention, and clearly did not understand the gravity of the situation or I would have run the other way.

Lost in all of this is that BSA should have done something, and didn't, which was actually my only point.  I hope you are done, because I am.

[ThenNow]

1 hour ago, Tron said:

I am going to assume that you were a scout in the 60's and 70's based on your alias; and assuming that is true I struggle with your narrative. Those of us old enough to remember how perverts and "queer" folk were treated prior to the 1990s know that toleration would have been a dream for them compared to the outright romper stomping and GTFO of town treatment they took from everyone in society. 

Yeah, well, I'm old enough and was involved in theater. I auditioned for a professional company and the 'diverse' sexual 'hits' I took kept me away. A good thing. Anway, in some areas of culture and society - I'm not saying Scouting - there was celebration of the new and emerging 'freedom' fueled by the sexual revolution. You're being hugely over broad and making a stereotypical faux pax of your own. (See below for more.)

1 hour ago, Eagle1970 said:

Really?  I bare my soul and you "struggle" with it?  I don't come on here to be questioned.  But for what it's worth, I have the names and addresses of 2 scouts who told me that.  How about you go troll elsewhere?

 

25 minutes ago, Tron said:

You're the one who has the narrative that the person who abused you "was a pervert and queer." Help me to understand how at a time when anyone overtly perverted or queer, let alone both could walk down the street without getting the shit kicked out of them was tolerated and ignored. 

Did you really miss this entirely in your rush to jump to down his throat, based on certain hot button words that are simply a reciting of his actual, personal, firsthand experience? He was quoting...

When I arrived and signed up for his merit badge, OTHER SCOUTS (who were attending multiple weeks) told me that he was a pervert and queer. 

But for what it's worth, I have the names and addresses of 2 scouts who told me that.

Please, please, please be respectful and respond to posts based upon what is said and not what you either heard or want to use as a platform. He is sharing HIS experience. 

Edited July 5, 2022 by ThenNow

[Tron]

30 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Yeah, well, I'm old enough and was involved in theater. I auditioned for a professional company and the 'diverse' sexual 'hits' I took kept me away. A good thing. Anway, in some areas of culture and society - I'm not saying Scouting - there was celebration of the new and emerging 'freedom' fueled by the sexual revolution. You're being hugely over broad and making a stereotypical faux pax of your own. (See below for more.)

 

Did you really miss this entirely in your rush to jump to down his throat, based on certain hot button words that are simply a reciting of his actual, personal, firsthand experience? He was quoting...

When I arrived and signed up for his merit badge, OTHER SCOUTS (who were attending multiple weeks) told me that he was a pervert and queer. 

But for what it's worth, I have the names and addresses of 2 scouts who told me that.

Please, please, please be respectful and respond to posts based upon what is said and not what you either heard or want to use as a platform. He is sharing HIS experience. 

So is the accused a pervert and a queer? Did Eagle1970 post that or is it a glitch in the matrix? 

[ThenNow]

2 hours ago, Eagle1970 said:

s I have posted elsewhere, my BSA summer camp abuse occurred after several weeks of prior campers clearly experienced my abuser's tactics.  When I arrived and signed up for his merit badge, other scouts (who were attending multiple weeks) told me that he was a pervert and queer.  He was quite comfortable at his little hideaway in the woods.  If BSA didn't know, they certainly should have known his actions were inappropriate.  They did not remove or reassign him.

What was the buzz among the Scouts and do you have any sense that adults had an inkling. I recognize this speculation, but I ask based on personal experience. As I posted eons ago, when I went to my 40th high school reunion a girl I dated and was very serious about was talking about how "complicated" I was and how sorry she was for not better understanding me, breaking up" yada yada. She was drinking...too much. Anywho, when I told her about the abuse, she told me something that blew me away. Her brother, 3-4 years younger, was a Scout. I mentored him. She told me one of our mutual Scout friends overheard my former girlfriend father say to my abuser SM, "If you ever tough my son I will kill you." I felt like I was drunk and hadn't touched anything in 15 years. I immediately went home and amended my Proof of Claim, Part 4: Nature of Sexual Abuse, Paragraph R, "Are you aware of anyone who knew about the abuse." This added the complicit SE and AMs. 

[ThenNow]

12 minutes ago, Tron said:

So is the accused a pervert and a queer? Did Eagle1970 post that or is it a glitch in the matrix?

This is what he was told by other Scouts. That's what he said. I can't speak for my fellow, but the subject "accused" is/was an adult BSA volunteer who abused a young boy. Period. The end. Nothing further, your honor. What's the point of this line of questioning? He was quoting someone else to make his point about potential foreknowledge going to the topic of concealment. Those words were incidental to conveying his point and not the substance of his specifically stated experience. I, for one, am not going to respond further on this baiting. It's irrelevant here and likely pointless, based upon how you have spoken to me and other survivors in our various exchanges. 

Edited July 5, 2022 by ThenNow

[Eagle1970]

16 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

This is what he was told by other Scouts. That's what he said. I can't speak for my fellow, but the subject "accused" is/was an adult BSA volunteer who abused a young boy. 

He was an adult BSA employee, who taught a specific merit badge, had his own little compound in the woods where scouts would be "taught".  The most egregious abuse was at "private" invitations at said compound, though some was actually rubbing on me in front of other scouts with clothes on.  He was out of control in every respect.

[vol_scouter]

Some of the cases seem to me to have been difficult at the time for the BSA to find.  But cases such as @ThenNow and @Eagle1970 seem to be impossible that someone would not have known that there was at least something happening that demanded more investigation to something obviously wrong.  It is sickening that Scouting professionals and volunteers failed to protect the Scouts.