can you have two charter organizations?

[anarchist]

In a couple of posts (different threads)I have hinted of problems with our charter organization...nice country church that recently started a preschool in the basement. Our Troop has met there for over 16 years. We are now moving kiddie furniture, chairs, bookcases, tables etc. against the walls and holding meetings in what appears to visitors to be a storage room.

 

I have located a group,(a National BSA approved charter organization) down the road a piece, which is wants to do back flips to welcome us to their facilities. They have wanted a Youth oriented group for a long time. Sound great except, we have a large group within the troop that does not want to break ties with our small community. It has been home to our troop for 50+ years. There are no 'town' sites available for a 60-80 boy troop. Schools are booked, other churches have other conflicts....

I have been called everything but "nice guy" by the church folks for even thinking about asking Scout families to move the troop. Our growth is just too much for the space and boys are now not coming to meetings because of the crowded, noisy situation.

 

My Idea is to have a partnership of sorts, with the old C.O. still 'attached' so to speak, and a new partner C.O. supplying a bigger meeting place. After talking to District and Council I am confused...District said "nope, only one C.O."; one council guy (on the phone) said "only one C.O."; but the lady in registration at council(when I went in person) said yep it could be done..."just fill out this new unit application and get a written letter of agreement from the old C.O." and gave me an application!(????)This of course 'made my heart soar', but after coming down to earth; I am hesitant to give people hope if my info is incorrect. A call to National has not been returned, nor has an email to Council.

 

ANY INSIGHT OUT THERE? I would love to keep a 'connection' with the old Charter Organization (our COR was one of the early scouts in the troop- 1952)...and I am sure my 'scalp' would be safer....

Your thoughts and suggestions as always...

anarchist

[EagleInKY]

You can't have "two charter organizations". However, I've known of a few occasions where a unit outgrew the physical facilities of a place and arranged to meet at another. The charter agreement states that the charter sponsor will provide facilities. It doesn't necessarily mean its own facilities. If all parties can agree, then I don't think it's an issue. Just don't call the place your meeting a "2nd charter organization". It just happens to be your meeting place.

[Eamonn]

The unit is in fact a branch of the chartering organization.The Troop is as much a part of the church as the choir. At some time the church went looking for a youth program or were presented with the idea of a youth program, which ended up to be one or more of the programs that the BSA has.

Just as the choir singing in the church and the synagogue would cause a few problems, the Troop can only belong to one organization.

Sure you can fill out a New Unit Application, but that would mean that you would in fact be starting a new unit. The church you are now in owns the equipment, the troop number and sorting that stuff out is one very large pain!!

The troop that my son is in is chartered by a Town Civic Association, for about the past 40 years they met in the basement of the town building. (It really is too small to call a town hall)Over the past few years thanks to a lot of work by the District, we have started a few more packs in the area and the troop numbers have really taken off. They have moved their meeting place to a local church in the town. Some of the Civic Association members attend this church and were instrumental in bringing the church and the troop together, however the Civic Association is still the chartered partner.

The troop "Pays" for the use of the church by doing service projects and is open to ideas for Eagle Scout Leadership projects that could be done at or for the church.

Eamonn.

[Troop185]

Our Troop is chartered by a Catholic Church, but it has its meetings at the County Sportsman Club. A great place for a Boy Scout Troop - nice buildings, great grounds, indoors/outdoors archery ranges, etc, etc., etc. Everyone thinks that we are co-sponsor, but we are not.

[FScouter]

Eamonn gave a perfect description. The troop is more than the people that are its members. Troops don't move, but the people may move. If you were to work with another church down the road and complete a new unit application you would be forming a new unit. Boys and adults that join the new unit would be members of that new troop. The new unit would have no history. The old troop would have fewer members.

 

The letter of agreement your council registration person talked about would tell the council that they were disbanding the unit and would no longer charter a troop. They would release the unit number, and maybe the funds and equipment too. The history of that troop would end. You would be then be able to re-use the same unit number. It would still be a new unit with no history.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Oddly enough, I want to go against the tide of popular opinion and say yes, you can have two charter organizations. This is found on page 9 of the Registration Proceedures Manual (which is given to council registrars and Scout Executives). Last sentence on the section regarding Chartered Organizations is (and I quote) "A unit can be sponsored by more than one chartered organization." This is from the 2003 printing of publication no. 28-901.

 

Sometimes it pays to have friends in low/high (take your pick) places (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Eamonn]

Maybe the Old Gray Eagle ought to have been an Old Gray Owl. He is right as was the Lady in your Council Service Center. Which is a fine way of me avoiding me saying that I was wrong.

There is indeed a sentence in the handbook that says a unit can be chartered by two organizations.

I admit to being wrong and am sorry for sounding off without checking.

I do think that there would have to be special, out of the ordinary circumstances. I am racking my brain trying to think of one and so far am drawing a blank. But that's nothing new!!

Please pass the salt and pepper I need to season this crow before I eat it.

Again please accept my apologies.

Eamonn.

[anarchist]

My heart is streaking towards the sky! While I am not an Eagle, maybe they will suffer me to soar along with them for a little while.

 

I still hope to hear in writing from Council or National before I lay my suggestion on the table (to the committee). I don't want to break any hearts! Thank you all...(right and not so right alike)! Shake enough trees and you can fill your basket. Trouble and all I love this stuff!

 

Y.I.S. (yours in scouting)

Anarchist

[eisely]

When my oldest son first became a boy scout in Southern California, the troop he joined had two chartered organizations, both protestant churches. It is both possible and legal. One of those churches subsequently lost interest.

 

If you are trying to broaden your membership base, particularly when your current CO cannot provide a meeting place, there is nothing wrong with this idea. You can retain your old ties at the same time as you build new ties.

[Eamonn]

If it is of any help, my source informs me that the reference can be found on page 9 of the Registration procedures manual, under the Chartered Organizations heading the last sentence is:

"A unit can be sponsored by more than one chartered organization."

That is all it has to say.

Eamonn.

[FScouter]

Interesting. Who would have thunk it? I wonder how they select a COR? Or would they have two? Must both organizations approve the adult leaders? How many votes do they get at the annual meeting?

[Fuzzy Bear]

I would like to pose another consideration.

 

Include the Meeting Place Inspection Checklist as part of your Annual Report to your Chartered Organization. Make sure that they see that your numbers are far beyond the capacity of the small room you are now using. Let them also know about your advancement, training, and outdoors program, as well as the Good Turn Projects that your unit has been doing for the church this year and for the next year, since you can also include your new Annual Plan in the report.

 

Get your Unit Commissioner to be part of the group that attends the meeting to present your Annual Report to the Chartered Organization. Go over the Report with all of the key leaders with your unit and the CO. Discuss with them the findings of the Meeting Place Inspection. The major element of this checklist is that the Charted Organization's agreement is to "provide adequate meeting facilities". This request is one thing the CO can do for a very good unit and will help increase numbers.

 

Let them know that the entire unit will be attending Scout Sunday for the formal presentation of the Charter and would like to be part of the service. (I would like to give you some more pointers but this should get you started.)

 

One note of caution: this is to be used as a way to find a solution together not as a way to discredit the CO. If done rightly, the CO will become aware of the problem and will abide by their agreement. Your unit will be able to commend the CO on how much they have assisted your unit in having an excellent program. Your presence at the presentation of the Charter will hopefully begin a closer relationship with them.

 

In Scouting,

 

FB

[dsteele]

FScouter:

 

I think it would be wonderful if needed to have two Chartered organizatins care enough about a unit to worry about the questions you posted:

 

"Interesting. Who would have thunk it? I wonder how they select a COR? Or would they have two? Must both organizations approve the adult leaders? How many votes do they get at the annual meeting?"

 

the information was as much a surprise to me as it was to anyone else. I agree with Eamonn that it is pretty rare that a unit would need two chartered organizations.

 

However, my theory is that if there were two, there would still only be one CR -- I've been told that Scoutnet will only accept one. It will be up to the chartered organizations as to who approves the leaders and who signs the forms.

 

I would think that as in the example provided by anarchist, where one organization has bought into the charter partner concept fully and the other has bought into providing a meeting place and needed help (correct me if I'm wrong anarchist,) that there will be no question as to who approves the leaders.

 

This is what I consider a reality answer vs. hypothetical. Someone asked me what the difference was last month and I didn't have a good answer. I would consider this a good answer.

 

Unc.

 

[txscoutdad]

Our troop is chartered to a local Homeschool Association group which has no physical property. We were meeting at the church that the SM attends, but do not have dual COs. Troop is only open to members of the Associaion and others by Committee aproval. The church was gracious enough to let us use the facilities but it was still not without it's problems. The troop decided to look for another church to host us for a meeting place recently and has found one that an ASM attends.

 

Having dual COs might work out but it could have it's problems.

Just thought I'd share a bit of our experiences.

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

anarchist,

 

Here is another possible solution. What does a growing church do when their physical facilities can't handle the size of their congregation? They build. I know of at least one unit in our district that has a "Scout Hut" built behind the church. Rather than build onto the church to accomodate the scouts, the scouts raised funds to build their own building. With a unit as large as yours, raising funds shouldn't be too hard over time. Perhaps the church could kick in too. They would still handle the insurance and utility payments as they do for their existing building. Perhaps you can get a local builder to give you a cut rate. The building can be as simple as a prefab metal building and doesn't have to be elaborate. That would be between the unit and the CO. It is worth considering. You could stay right where you are and continue your long relationship with the CO. I think the other CO would find it more rewarding to build a program than move an existing program anyway. Scouting needs real growth with new boys registered more than they need units shuffling to different CO's.