Question About Investigation Procedures

[jcousino]

"  

15 minutes ago, elitts said:

Given the fact that he was unequivocally gay,

Not a statement  i would make and not a defense. Need to find a better anecdote

[johnsch322]

1 hour ago, elitts said:

It would depend on the nature of the statements and the behavior. 

Yes you are correct.

5 hours ago, scoutlaw74 said:

This is something my son and I have discussed….this is very, very serious, and my son knows it, he also knows he didn’t do this and he has faith that the truth will come out. He was following the buddy system too.

This is the fathers words. 

 

On 6/27/2022 at 5:14 PM, scoutlaw74 said:

Since I posted here my son has learned more, and it appears that he was accused by a female scout of inappropriate behavior and making threatening statements, which are not true.

Something that is very, very serious and involves inappropriate behavior and making threatening statements would seem to be something the BSA would want the police or local authority outside of BSA to be looking into. As a parent I would want law enforcement involved weather my child was the accuser or the accused.

[Eagle94-A1]

2 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

Something that is very, very serious and involves inappropriate behavior and making threatening statements would seem to be something the BSA would want the police or local authority outside of BSA to be looking into. As a parent I would want law enforcement involved weather my child was the accuser or the accused.

You are correct, BSA would have local law enforcement involved. But the accused would be removed from Scouting, until law enforcement concluded their investigation. Even then, the accused may be permanently banned, even if the evidence  exonerated the accused.

[scoutlaw74]

Thank you for noting this, but, would a youth falsely accused and exonerated really still be excluded from scouting? This would devastate my son. He’s an active Eagle scout. He hasn’t done anything wrong. Is it really BSA policy for an accused and exonerated scout to be excluded?

Edited June 30, 2022 by scoutlaw74

[scoutlaw74]

4 hours ago, jcousino said:

"  

Not a statement  i would make and not a defense. Need to find a better anecdote

This was a statement made in an anecdote someone mentioned in this thread unrelated to what my son is going through. I just want to point this out. 

[Eagle94-A1]

20 minutes ago, scoutlaw74 said:

Thank you for noting this, but, would a youth falsely accused and exonerated really still be excluded from scouting? This would devastate my son. He’s an active Eagle scout. He hasn’t done anything wrong. Is it really BSA policy for an accused and exonerated scout to be excluded?

BSA's policy is to protect youth and itself. I do not know how they will decide on a youth. I do know the individual who was exonerated had the District Award of Merit, Silver Beaver, and was scheduled to undergo the Vigil.

[scoutlaw74]

On 6/25/2022 at 9:06 PM, fred8033 said:

I've never heard of a national level investigation.  Local councils investigate, remove membership and submit records to national for their ineligible volunteer files.  

• Perhaps someone has heard of a national investigation.  I haven't.  
• Who told him?  Did he receive a letter telling him he is suspended from scouting pending conclusion of the investigation?  
• Does your son have any conflicts or other interpersonal experiences that might have escalated?  I've often seen over zealous complaints submitted by upset parents.  By "over zealous", I mean the complaint itself is a type of abuse against the scout and/or his family.  
• Your son might not have been directly involved.  ... example ... A bad event involving others results in a report.  Someone might have written that others knew and/or did not follow the rules.

Scouting investigates are a different breed.  It's confidential.  It's not a trial.  You don't get to see the complaint and/or defend yourself.  If there was a possibility of a crime, mandatory reporting to police would have already happened.  So, it's some type of conflict inside scouting.  ... Worst that can happen is membership revoked.  I've never seen Eagle taken away.  ... If the local council can't cleanly complete the investigation, individuals are often removed to protect BSA.  Membership is a privilege.  

IMHO ...

1. Your son should do everything he can to defend and/or protect himself.  Follow-up.
2. Move on. 
   • I love scouting, but it's not everything in the world. 
   • If the magic is gone, find the next great experience / activity / adventure.

Thank you for the advice, as far as my son and I understand these accusations have only been shared to adult scouters by the individual, parents are not involved. My son has good relationships with most scouts, but he tends to have more conservative views of the world. He was accused by another female scout of being a racist and homophobic, but he’s not. He actually reported that individual’s comments toward him and asked for a restorative conversation as he didn’t understand where that comment was coming from. Regardless false accusations against a youth are horrible. There certainly is no place in scouting for such behavior. Such things destroy the fabric of a Scout is Trustworthy, Obedient and pretty much everything else. These things destroy lives. 

[scoutlaw74]

3 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

BSA's policy is to protect youth and itself. I do not know how they will decide on a youth. I do know the individual who was exonerated had the District Award of Merit, Silver Beaver, and was scheduled to undergo the Vigil.

And they still were excluded from scouting after being exonerated? I apologize, but this doesn’t make sense. There must be a review/appeal process for such situations. This is horrible if I understand this correctly. 

[qwazse]

I am afraid any resolution of the problem will not comfort the accused scout …

9 hours ago, scoutlaw74 said:

... What I don’t understand is how can a scout make such a serious false accusation and persist in doing so? How does a scout live with themselves in good conscience having done something that can ultimately be illegal? …

My son, … still says that when this is all over he hopes that whoever did this still has a chance to remain in scouting and to learn and grow from this, in other words, forgiveness. …

If the accused scout’s defense is true, then the accusing scout is either delusional or manipulative. In either case, she can’t be trusted and is therefore disqualified as a scout. Such scouts in my troop or crew have been suspended for six months. We can work with crazy — a little; but lying crazy — not so much. Sadly, it can take years to recover from being suspended from a volunteer organization, and we have not had suspended scouts return. So the accused scout’s wish for reconciliation is unlikely to happen anytime soon.

It doesn’t matter if lying scouts are removed officially or not. If they aren’t brutally honest about themselves, they will erode the life of their unit. What scout will want to tent with this scout? What leader will want to have any kind of personal relationship? It won’t be long before the unit suspends operation for lack of membership and adequate supervision.

There simply aren’t a lot of winning scenarios.

[fred8033]

14 hours ago, jcousino said:

...  Threating statement are actionable ... bully is actionable in some state's. 

13 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Law enforcement may have been called in and it is being investigated by them. 

Sadly, the police, CPS and the courts are extremely busy.  To get a police/prosecutor "investigation", this has to be really, really significant.  A simple fact is that just too many events in society could be called a crime.  Law enforcement needs to triage and handle the bigger crimes and high risk situations. 

I've been helping a non-scouting non-profit lately (don't want to get into details).  They are dealing with really, really hard and potentially dangerous problems.  But until an incident happens, the police are too busy with higher priority triaged incidents.   Until then, the best we can get is a 30-minute response and a no trespass order ... and that's after we've already had big issues.

From the given information, there is nothing that law enforcement would invest more than a phone call on.  It's just not that high of a public danger risk.  ... all IMHO ...

 

1 hour ago, scoutlaw74 said:

... would a youth falsely accused and exonerated really still be excluded from scouting? ...

BSA will never get law enforcement to exonerate your son.  Law enforcement has real evils to pursue.  This report just won't be seen as a big public risk ... and you should be glad about it.  

The real challenge is BSA bureaucracy working to protect youth and to protect BSA.  

Edited June 30, 2022 by fred8033

[Eagle94-A1]

9 hours ago, scoutlaw74 said:

And they still were excluded from scouting after being exonerated? I apologize, but this doesn’t make sense. There must be a review/appeal process for such situations. This is horrible if I understand this correctly. 

Correct. They were placed in the IVF and never removed. The sheriff's department doing the investigation found enough evidence to show that the "scout" was being a peeping Tom after hours at the adult showers during the designated time for ladies, which was after lights out. This "scout" had a history of sneaking out after hours and lying to avoid trouble.

[scoutlaw74]

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Correct. They were placed in the IVF and never removed. The sheriff's department doing the investigation found enough evidence to show that the "scout" was being a peeping Tom after hours at the adult showers during the designated time for ladies, which was after lights out. This "scout" had a history of sneaking out after hours and lying to avoid trouble.

Dear God! This person should be removed from scouting. That is horrible, and he should be prosecuted for such horrific criminal behavior. 

[scoutlaw74]

13 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Sadly, the police, CPS and the courts are extremely busy.  To get a police/prosecutor "investigation", this has to be really, really significant.  A simple fact is that just too many events in society could be called a crime.  Law enforcement needs to triage and handle the bigger crimes and high risk situations. 

I've been helping a non-scouting non-profit lately (don't want to get into details).  They are dealing with really, really hard and potentially dangerous problems.  But until an incident happens, the police are too busy with higher priority triaged incidents.   Until then, the best we can get is a 30-minute response and a no trespass order ... and that's after we've already had big issues.

From the given information, there is nothing that law enforcement would invest more than a phone call on.  It's just not that high of a public danger risk.  ... all IMHO ...

 

BSA will never get law enforcement to exonerate your son.  Law enforcement has real evils to pursue.  This report just won't be seen as a big public risk ... and you should be glad about it.  

The real challenge is BSA bureaucracy working to protect youth and to protect BSA.  

I can see that but we are both are now sort of thinking that we welcome law enforcement to investigate as he is fully innocent and we believe that the truth will likely come out faster and more directly with law enforcement being involved. It is a crime to lie to a police officer, and my son is not worried about being arrested or charged as he didn’t do this. We do welcome a law enforcement investigation. 

[fred8033]

6 minutes ago, scoutlaw74 said:

I can see that but we are both are now sort of thinking that we welcome law enforcement to investigate as he is fully innocent and we believe that the truth will likely come out faster and more directly with law enforcement being involved. It is a crime to lie to a police officer, and my son is not worried about being arrested or charged as he didn’t do this. We do welcome a law enforcement investigation. 

People lie to the police all the time.  Continually.  All the time. ...  Heck, every soccer mom could be arrested for the weight on their driver's license.

Is it a crime?  ... Yes, lying to law enforcement is a crime.  ... then consider ... misinterpretation, misremembering, emotional distortion, point-of-view, judging, interpretation...  It's just not always that clear.  It's rarely worth pursuing.  

... A young lady made a false accusation ... if she is anything like I am, she will periodically for the rest of her life be tortured by the mistakes she made.  This would be one of them.  ...  

IMHO.  Protect your son.  Get your son to protect himself.  ... Find a way to move on.

 

[T2Eagle]

24 minutes ago, scoutlaw74 said:

I can see that but we are both are now sort of thinking that we welcome law enforcement to investigate as he is fully innocent and we believe that the truth will likely come out faster and more directly with law enforcement being involved. It is a crime to lie to a police officer, and my son is not worried about being arrested or charged as he didn’t do this. We do welcome a law enforcement investigation. 

Respectfully, you don't ever want law enforcement involvement if you're the accused.  Law enforcement never "exonerates" anyone.  The best conclusion they can ever reach is that they don't have evidence of a crime.  They can't say a crime was not committed --- because they don't know --- because, --- and here is the magic phrase I learned in law school ---  "(I) (they) don't know, because (I) (they) weren't there."  Investigators don't have magic powers of discernment that allow them to KNOW whether someone is or is not being truthful, they are just as fallible as anyone else at that.  And, different people seeing the same events, even participating in the same events, will have truthful, but differing, recollections about exactly what happened, and different, but truthful, interpretations of the meaning of the what happened.

BSA, or council, or whoever in scouting is investigating this is not really trying to divine any ultimate TRUTH about what happened.  Again, they can't because they weren't there.  As mentioned above, they are deciding what is the safest course of action for BSA and for the scouts when they are under the responsibility of scouting.  They are going to be very cautious,  and may err on the side of safest is removing one, both, or multiple scouts.

I hope things work out for your son, but it's important to remember that membership isn't scouting, living the Oath and Law are scouting, and there is a lifetime of opportunities for him to do that.