How can we, the BSA, positively respond to the ongoing issue around Gun Control?

[ThenNow]

19 hours ago, Navybone said:

I purposely stated that the political leadership lacks the ability to do anything.  I do not believe this is a guns only issue, or a mental health issue, or a video game issue.  It is a complex issue that requires adults willing to talk consider all aspects of the issue.

Amen. Like child sexual abuse, as well as trafficking and mental health overall, where are the real champions of the cause(s) Who will humbly and earnestly convene a true coalition of thinkers, donors and doers? I see precious few.

Our oldest some was a Criminal Justice major with a Homeland Security emphasis. His track was graduate, Police Academy, then FBI, Homeland or the like. After Ferguson, his now wife begged him to reconsider. He did and I'll spare you the subsequent details. In any case, I have put a great deal of time into thinking about and researching the topic. I am no expert, merely a troubled citizen and father, moderately passionate gun guy, lifelong hunter, lifetime NRA member and yada yada yada. I know a good bit about guns and a good bit about mental and behavioral health. I know a decent amount about the flux of society and have a better than average knowledge of politics, policy and party loyalty idiocy. A few thoughts. I am not trying to indict or incite, merely share my musings.

1. If guns were the only issue, my hometown, with guns hanging from a rack in the back of every pickup truck and bouncing around in the trunk of many cars, would've had a real problem with mass shootings in the 60's and 70's. Didn't happened and that's a good data point. (This is borne out as a clear trend in the US.) Did I or others typically own a tactical rifle then? No. Do I think it would've made a difference? I don't. I have 8 long guns and two pistols. None has wandered out of the safe or otherwise and committed so much as one crime. I've had the 20 gauge since I was 11 and the BB gun since I was 10.

2. Mental health is clearly a major factor or there would be many statistical data points highlighting the number of murderers and shooters with previously identified maladies. As it is, a great many have been identified pre-action, but often unreported or, if reported, not acted upon by friends, family, professionals and others. I am not blaming, just pointing it our. Also, all mental health issues are not in play as high level candidates for identification, study and analysis. If that were the case, more people suffering with clinical depression, eating disorders, anxiety disorders and childhood trauma would be on the list of offenders. They're not. Anger, a history of violence toward self, others and animals, exposure to violence (especially domestic and neighborhood), inner city gun violence, delusional behavior and public, extremist communications are the top line. There is a ton here to discuss, including retaliatory domestic and workplace rage. In most cases, there were signs there, too.

3. Taking back or restricting guns when we have 400M of them in the US is impossible, unenforceable, and would not be carried out by many sent door to door to do it. I've spoken with people who would have that task and they would be subtly non-compliant. Ditto forcing registration. Threaten heavy restrictions on guns and ammo? See the data from 2020-2021. My wife asked for a pistol for Christmas in 2020. True fact. "If they're going to take away my right I want one before they do." Will law abiding people register? Not many. Why? It is a clear infringement of their right. "Come and take it" and "Don't tread on me" are not just bumper stickers, flags and slogans. Again, not picking a fight here.

4. Virtual violence is definitely deteriorative and a contributing factor. Studies have shown it is not major, though. With those virtual worlds, violence is celebrated and rewarded, but where is it far worse?

5. Answer: Media complicity and sensationalism. The media loves selling views, clicks, "papers," likes and Tweets around mass shootings. IMHO, this is a chronic disease showing little decency, knowledge of human behavior, responsibility and basic civility. They go so far beyond what is healthy, necessary and societally beneficial as to be grotesque and prurient. They are "standing on the bodies of the slain" for reputational benefit and financial gain. Fact. 

6. Lest I forget, which I already did, very few people want to research or acknowledge the data on defensive gun use vs offensive. The same goes for the instances of deterring crime by law abiding permit carries, often including off-duty law enforcement. 

All that to say, those interested in doing a small part will teach safety, societal and interpersonal decency and responsibility, pay close attention to their children and those for whom they caretake, and understand how they can build character through example, time with kids and being advocates for life and personal development in children and. adults.. BSA is a part of that (I think). I've been on the shelf for a long time, so I'm not expert.

That's all for now. Gotta do some work.

Edited May 31, 2022 by ThenNow
Oops. Too few zeros.

[Navybone]

3 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Given BSA's partnership with the NRA and the NRA's hardline stance against gun reform it is tough to see BSA as a neutral party.  To be fair though, I am not aware of alternate organizations that provide good gun safety instructor training.  I (as does many scouters) want to see BSA continue shooting sports, so I expect that partnership to continue.

It may be time for the BSA to sever its ties with the NRA.  It would be a shame since the NRA has good gun safety training (it is what I learned so many years ago).  But with the political baggage that comes along with being associated with NRA, this may merit serious consideration. 

There is some precedence.  The BSA has their own lifeguard training.  While the Red Cross training is more well know and accepted, is the BSA Lifeguard training any less an effective training curriculum for being a lifeguard (I have no idea, I had the red cross training when I was a lifeguard)?  BSA could adopt the same principals and approach to gun safety as the NRA curriculum, but drop the NRA implied endorsement.   Not a perfect solution, but may be worth considering. 

[Navybone]

40 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

1. If guns were the only issue, my hometown, with guns hanging from a rack in the back of every pickup truck and bouncing around in the trunk of many cars, would've had a real problem with mass shootings in the 60's and 70's. Didn't happened and that's a good data point. (This is borne out as a clear trend in the US.) Did I or others typically own a tactical rifle then? No. Do I think it would've made a difference? I don't. I have 8 long guns and two pistols. None has wandered out of the safe or otherwise and committed so much as one crime. I've had the 20 gauge since I was 11 and the BB gun since I was 10.

In response to your comment on mass shootings in the 60's and 70's, have to wonder if part of reason that there were not as many mass shootings (this assessment is based on anecdotal, not any specific research by me) was due to availability of types of weapons used today.  By this I mean, were AR-15 and other weapons  available to the degree they are today?   Listening to NPR this morning, the comment was that while there is no definitive data that shows the Assault weapon ban that ended 2004 (?) reduced mass shootings during the period of the ban, there was definitive day that showed a spiked increase in mass shootings with assault weapons (i.e. those included in the ban) once it was lifted.  I was in the car so cannot tell you who said it, but the suggestion was that there is a relationship between availability of obtaining certain types of weapons.

[ThenNow]

14 minutes ago, Navybone said:

In response to your comment on mass shootings in the 60's and 70's, have to wonder if part of reason that there were not as many mass shootings (this assessment is based on anecdotal, not any specific research by me) was due to availability of types of weapons used today.  By this I mean, were AR-15 and other weapons  available to the degree they are today?

Not directly responsive, but I thought I would post it. From my conversations, most people don't know this. I have not researched the background study or studies. Next to this chart it is must be noted that 4 of the 5 most deadly shootings involved a semi-auto rifle.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/476409/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-weapon-types-used/

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by ThenNow
Oops

[Eagle94-A1]

18 minutes ago, Navybone said:

There is some precedence.  The BSA has their own lifeguard training.  While the Red Cross training is more well know and accepted, is the BSA Lifeguard training any less an effective training curriculum for being a lifeguard (I have no idea, I had the red cross training when I was a lifeguard)?  BSA could adopt the same principals and approach to gun safety as the NRA curriculum, but drop the NRA implied endorsement.   Not a perfect solution, but may be worth considering. 

As a former BSA Lifeguard, I can tell you it is 99.98% ARC to the point that the books and videos used in the class was ARC. In fact if you were willing to pay an extra $20 and take the ARC exam, you would be dual certified. the .02% difference was BSA's Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat.

So BSA Lifeguard is not a good example of BSA going their own way.

[Tron]

8 minutes ago, Navybone said:

In response to your comment on mass shootings in the 60's and 70's, have to wonder if part of reason that there were not as many mass shootings (this assessment is based on anecdotal, not any specific research by me) was due to availability of types of weapons used today.  By this I mean, were AR-15 and other weapons  available to the degree they are today?   Listening to NPR this morning, the comment was that while there is no definitive data that shows the Assault weapon ban that ended 2004 (?) reduced mass shootings during the period of the ban, there was definitive day that showed a spiked increase in mass shootings with assault weapons (i.e. those included in the ban) once it was lifted.  I was in the car so cannot tell you who said it, but the suggestion was that there is a relationship between availability of obtaining certain types of weapons.

Magazine fed, semi automatic, and previously fully automatic rifles were available in the 1960's and 1970's. The US Army didn't stop its discharge weapon purchase program until the 1980's (which means they were discharging draft era soldiers and allowing them to take fully automatic M16A1s home). There is no way to legislate away gun crime. Mexico has some of the most strict gun laws in the world and Mexico has 10x the number of shootings as America. Look at Switzerland where servicemembers are mandated to keep firearms at home in case of national emergency. Also look at the fact that for decades Switzerland had discharge purchase programs. Switzerland is one of the countries with the lowest gun related crime. 

It all goes back to knowledge of how firearms work, respect for how dangerous they are, understanding that firearms are not toys, and proper storage. Maybe the rifle shooting merit badge should become Eagle required.

[ThenNow]

18 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

And not a single upvote.

There has been a ton of angst expressed here for child scouts who were subjected to child sexual abuse, yet for children being MURDERED, not a word.

I stand appalled.

I'm not a heavy up-voter, especially if a post has what I believe to be more than one point, any one of which I vehemently disagree with. I surely grieve. See my point about gun violence, CSA and sex trafficking. I put them in the same sentence. "Failure" to punch the wee emoji-producing icon neither negates it nor allows you to assume I or anyone else doesn't grieve. I hope that's not what you meant. It's a post that is upvoted. I see nothing where I can upvote line by line or point by point. For me, I couldn't do so because of your advocacy for a total ban and, presumably, confiscation. Trust me, I grieve. Not stating as much is no sin of omission, just my choice not to affirm your entire post. 

Edited May 31, 2022 by ThenNow

[fred8033]

18 hours ago, Tron said:

It all goes back to knowledge of how firearms work, respect for how dangerous they are, understanding that firearms are not toys, and proper storage.

Your points are well taken.  Switzerland.  Mexico.  etc.  

I've hesitated responding because of extreme political intensity here.  IMHO, it's not a gun problem, but perhaps gun control could help save lives.  ... perhaps could break the cycle ...  I'll avoid deciding either way on that ... I value the bill of rights just too much to take it lightly.  

My view.  This is a fundamental civility, empathy and understanding the real hard facts of life.  These murderers are playing out a demented fantasy to show their personal pain. 

Scouting has a place in this discussion.  Hard lessons teach understanding your actions and choices have implications and results.  Example ... You forget to zip your tent shut?  Then you and your buddy are going to sleep with mosquitos and/or rain soaked sleeping bags.   These small, safe scouting level screw ups help teach survival, empathy and responsibility to each other.  

Is NRA good or bad?  I don't know, but political vilifying NRA is just another demented fantasy that stops larger reflection on what the heck is going on.  

Edited June 1, 2022 by elitts
clarity

[qwazse]

21 hours ago, Eagledad said:

... The conclusion of experts and political elites at the time was that the shooters were loners and their parents were part of the problem because they never realized their sons planning the shooting. The psychologist said he was very concerned after leading these community discussions because the parents didn't seem to want to understand their roles in a healthy family dynamics. …

The reason why this disturbs is that it supposed that mass murder could be a rational conclusion based on the environment in which one is immersed.

Having known a few young men (all from good parents) who committed suicide (not all with firearms), I often wonder if one or two of them were motivated by an urgent need to prevent themselves from doing anything worse. Obviously I’ll never know, but I certainly wish they had the courage to talk it out with one or more of the many people who they could trust,myself included.

[ThenNow]

58 minutes ago, qwazse said:

I certainly wish they had the courage to talk it out

I will leave it at this, but IMNSHO that is a terrible and egregious assumption from someone - I ASSUME - who has not been in the head, heart and circumstances of someone who is suicidal. I really wish you had not said this and, more so, that you didn't hold this opinion of young men you saw meet their end. This is the second time this opinion has been expressed on the forum and it deeply saddened me both times. Utterly.

Edited May 31, 2022 by ThenNow

[Eagledad]

13 minutes ago, qwazse said:

The reason why this disturbs is that it supposed that mass murder could be a rational conclusion based on the environment in which one is immersed.

Having known a few young men (all from good parents) who committed suicide (not all with firearms), I often wonder if one or two of them were motivated by an urgent need to prevent themselves from doing anything worse. Obviously I’ll never know, but I certainly wish they had the courage to talk it out with one or more of the many people who they could trust,myself included.

This is an interesting post. My high school teacher son was just telling me how many suicidal  students have approached him for help. He takes them immediately to see the councilor but sits with them while they wait. He is glad they trust him, but struggles with the number. Most of the students that approach him are in pain from loneliness. Covid certainly hasn't helped but he says that social media is crew. But, what really surprised me was how many of his students have gone to prison for murder. He said that in most cases, you would have never guessed they could do that. Which I guess is your point.

Barry

[Navybone]

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

As a former BSA Lifeguard, I can tell you it is 99.98% ARC to the point that the books and videos used in the class was ARC. In fact if you were willing to pay an extra $20 and take the ARC exam, you would be dual certified. the .02% difference was BSA's Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat.

So BSA Lifeguard is not a good example of BSA going their own way.

Actually, it is exactly what I am saying.  Just remove the NRA moniker and official ties to the organizations, but stay aligned with their excellent instruction. 

[RememberSchiff]

24 minutes ago, Navybone said:

Actually, it is exactly what I am saying.  Just remove the NRA moniker and official ties to the organizations, but stay aligned with their excellent instruction. 

There may be other NRA benefits - range improvements and liability insurance, either contractually or via NRA's National Youth Shooting Sports Cooperative Program Sports

NRA has resources, programs and training to assist youth organizations, such as Boy Scout troops, Royal Ranger outposts, American Legion posts, JROTC units, 4-H clubs, FFA chapters, commercial summer camps and U.S. Jaycee chapters.

https://www.scouting.org/outdoor-programs/properties/did-u-know/nra/

https://rangeservices.nra.org/

https://www.seqbsa.org/thanks-to-the-nra/

 

[ThenNow]

39 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

My high school teacher son was just telling me how many suicidal  students have approached him for help. He takes them immediately to see the councilor but sits with them while they wait. He is glad they trust him, but struggles with the number.

Suicide is the second-leading cause of death among people age 15 to 24 in the U.S. Nearly 20% of high school students report serious thoughts of suicide and 9% have made an attempt to take their lives, according to the National Alliance on Mental Illness.

####

“Teenagers and young adults have the highest rates of suicide compared to other ages,” Dr. Fleisher says. “The things that make them vulnerable are where they stand socially and where they stand developmentally.”

Developmentally, their judgment and decision-making abilities are still coming online, he says. The prefrontal cortex — the brain’s executive control center — doesn’t fully develop until one’s mid-20s.

That makes young people more impulsive, Dr. Fleisher says: "They're not going to weigh risks and consequences or values in quite the same way that older folks will.”

Socially, teens and young adults don’t have the same connections older adults do. Someone who is married, has a long-term partner or has children or grandchildren is in a different place socially than someone who is just coming into their own, living with roommates or alone.

The isolation of the pandemic exacerbated social disconnection even more.

https://connect.uclahealth.org/2022/03/15/suicide-rate-highest-among-teens-and-young-adults/

 

[skeptic]

2 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Your points are well taken.  Switzerland.  Mexico.  etc.  

I've hesitated responding because of extreme political intensity here.  IMHO, it's not a gun problem, but perhaps gun control could help save lives.  ... perhaps could break the cycle ...  I'll avoid deciding either way on that ... I value the bill of rights just too much to take it lightly.  

My view.  This is a fundamental civility, empathy and understanding the real hard facts of life.  These murders are playing out a demented fantasy to show their personal pain. 

Scouting has a place in this discussion.  Hard lessons teach understanding your actions and choices have implications and results.  Example ... You forget to zip your tent shut?  Then you and your buddy are going to sleep with mosquitos and/or rain soaked sleeping bags.   These small, safe scouting level screw ups help teach survival, empathy and responsibility to each other.  

Is NRA good or bad?  I don't know, but political vilifying NRA is just another demented fantasy that stops larger reflection on what the heck is going on.  

"Is NRA good or bad?"  

My long time perception is that the original NRA was and still can be positive player in this issue.  But, that status has been eroded by the politics at have taken over the organization.  I have discussed rational and common sense ideas related to this with a number of NRA members and somewhat radical, in my view, gun owners.  One of those is my older brother.  He agrees almost whole heartedly that reasonable training and barriers are essential, and says he would have no problem with them.  Then he turns around and starts with the corruption of the 2nd Amendment nonsense and goes off on the common tangent we hear about this.  Yet he just agreed that training and restrictions are important for owning and using a firearm.

He has taught his own sons, and their children how to safely use guns, and will absolutely stop them if they abuse the privilege.  So, I find it even more difficult to understand this disconnect.  

Still, much of what NRA still offers is viable and positive.  They just need to get back to the simple premise of responsibility and safety, and away from the noise about "taking our guns" and so on.  That of course is part of the POL problem, as many use it to gain a foot hold of some sort over some who are not necessarily rational already.  

JMHO of course.