YPT infraction reporting help

[elitts]

4 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

It is important to say that maybe, just maybe, we don't have the complete story here.  If I were the COR or SE, I'd like to hear from about three or four more people to hone in on "the facts of the case" before forming any judgements about the situation.

I think that's part of what's really tripping me up here too.  I've seen too many instances of parents going to battle for their kids only to find out what the kid told the parent in the first place wasn't exactly or entirely what happened.  I don't know if that's the case here or not, but some parts of the story as laid out certainly trip some warning bells saying SOMETHING is missing here.

[Cecille25]

4 hours ago, elitts said:

I just want to make it clear that I never said, nor do I think, that the behavior the OP has described is acceptable.  If I were the CC or COR and I became aware of an incident like this it would take an other-wise sterling record, a completely repentant attitude and some serious consideration before I considered anything besides booting the SM from his/her position if not the troop.  I just

 

Bullying is certainly reportable, all I said is that not all instances of someone being mean is "bullying", regardless of whether or not there is a power imbalance.

 

It really depends on what "behaved poorly towards him" actually means.  Just didn't want to hang out with him?  Told him to go away?  Started calling him names?  I have to think, given the topic, if the kids had actually been openly hostile, the OP would have mentioned it.  Expecting kids to maintain an emotional calm at all times in order to be perfectly kind is ridiculous.  If there was some kind of big blow up between some kids on a camp-out, I'm not going to bat an eye if the groups involved want to avoid each other for an hour or two until their feelings settle down.  Of course if it goes on for an extended period of time or if one side or the other starts trying to entice others to ostracize people, it's a different story.

Well, I started my post when there were only about 4 comments.  There's been a whole lot of additional information OP has tacked on since then that makes the situation look like the SM is a significant problem with a history of abusive behavior over the pink shirt thing.  But I still think it's reasonable for the core Committee to ask the OP and maybe scout to come in discuss the situation.  (though not with a large group of parents and maybe not with the SM)  But to be clear, it should be to discuss the incident, not the report to the Council.

As far as the whole "repeated behavior" thing, well that one is trickier.  In this case, if the SM has been reported 3 times (I'm going to assume by different people and not OP) for harassing people wearing pink, I think it starts to be pretty clear the guy has a homophobic issue with the color pink and he's bullying anyone that violates his standards of masculinity.  But I'm always going to be hesitant about claims of bullying for single incidents happening to different people unless there's a clear unifying factor (as in this case) or a significant pattern of recurrence.

 

Unfortunately the CC did not act as they should have and the DE said it was investigating the situation. The DE later was hostile and refused and sided with the actions of the CC in them holding this meeting with the parents and SM. I called national and they told me the CC and DE were in the wrong and that I was correct in not giving the CC any information since it involved a minor. It is confidential information. There was more than enough evidence from those at camp, voice messages, texts and photos of the incident. The real issue is that 2 grown men do not have the right nor authority to intimidate, exclude him from his group, humiliate, embarrass, say “why can’t you be normal?”…  and bringing him to tears. That is not acceptable and apparently here in Central FL its OK to behave that way. Only makes. me ill. 

[Cecille25]

Well I am in shock. The CC retaliated and without informing me removed me from being secretary of the troop. These folks are disgusting. 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Eagle1993
Removed image that displayed BSA info about committee chair.

[Eagle1993]

1 hour ago, Cecille25 said:

Well I am in shock. The CC retaliated and without informing me removed me from being secretary of the troop. These folks are disgusting. 

 

If you are being targeted for reporting a possible YPT violation, that is a serious issue.  I think it goes even beyond the initial case.  Unless the output of the investigation indicated the parent lied, I cannot imagine this was an appropriate action.  Unfortunately, that has been reported in the past here.

Note BSA does have an anti retaliation policy for employees, but I have yet to see one for volunteers.

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/controller/BSA_Whistle_Blower_Policy.pdf

 

@ThenNow @MYCVAStory ... do you know if the youth protection changes from bankruptcy require BSA to include an anti-retaliation policy?  

[MikeS72]

2 hours ago, Cecille25 said:

There was more than enough evidence from those at camp, voice messages, texts and photos of the incident.

Just a few questions to help clarify things:

1.  Were any of the other Scouts in the troop willing to step up and confirm what your sons told you happened, or did they all remain silent?

2.  You stated earlier that the SM has been reported for similar behaviors multiple times.  Did any of these incidents involve other Scouts in the troop, or were they all directed toward your son?  Was there a pattern of conflict between them?

3.  You also mentioned that the troop t-shirts were sold in a variety of colors.  Was this event one in which each Scout wore the color they liked best, or was it one where they were all asked to wear the same color (if indeed they all have the same color)?

4.  Was anything worked out during the event to allow your son to participate or was he in fact excluded?

Regardless of the answers to these questions it appears as though things are pretty toxic for you and your son in this troop, and I would recommend looking elsewhere.

[ThenNow]

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

@ThenNow @MYCVAStory ... do you know if the youth protection changes from bankruptcy require BSA to include an anti-retaliation policy?  

I don't see anything in the terms. Someone should be made aware of this gap, though. Are there other documented instances among members here that would put together a pattern beyond isolated examples? Regardless, it shouldn't happen at all if anyone wants YP to really work as a core element of culture and practice. 

[malraux]

It’s worth saying that the chartering organization might also have anti-retaliation rules in place.

[qwazse]

4 hours ago, Cecille25 said:

Well I am in shock. The CC retaliated and without informing me removed me from being secretary of the troop. These folks are disgusting.

Why should being removed from your committee responsibilities bother you? Your boys decided to relocate to another troop. You can now do so without there being any formal obligation to the committee on your part.

The downside of posting your complaint on a forum like this, is that everyone can read it.

It is likely that we will soon get a reply to this thread from a member of the troop stating that the situation has been misrepresented, and the actual issues are being handled with discretion by the committee.

It doesn't matter. You can move on with little to lose. You won't be forced to stay in a troop with what you have concluded is a toxic atmosphere. And you can do so knowing that you've done your due diligence.

[Cecille25]

2 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

Just a few questions to help clarify things:

1.  Were any of the other Scouts in the troop willing to step up and confirm what your sons told you happened, or did they all remain silent?

2.  You stated earlier that the SM has been reported for similar behaviors multiple times.  Did any of these incidents involve other Scouts in the troop, or were they all directed toward your son?  Was there a pattern of conflict between them?

3.  You also mentioned that the troop t-shirts were sold in a variety of colors.  Was this event one in which each Scout wore the color they liked best, or was it one where they were all asked to wear the same color (if indeed they all have the same color)?

4.  Was anything worked out during the event to allow your son to participate or was he in fact excluded?

Regardless of the answers to these questions it appears as though things are pretty toxic for you and your son in this troop, and I would recommend looking elsewhere.

To answer your questions : 

1.  They did not question any scouts mentioned in the report since the CC & CE do not get access to the report filed with council. And they CC nor the DE spoke to my children. 

2. The incidents reported involved another child for the first offense and he had a talk to by the CC and DE 5 months ago and he was to be monitored. Second was against my son who is SPL . 3. was to my 12 year old. 

3. The only event where they prefer they all match is Woodruff. At all other events they wear whatever is clean. At this particular event my son had on a non troop shirt in purple one day and had no issues. It wasn’t until he put on the pink troop shirt that the issue arose. 

4. After 45 min of being bullied and told to conform or “why can’t you be normal?” The issue was resolved when the campmaster another adult came on the scene. Followed by a staff member and my son who was staff at that time. All informed SM & ASM of YPT and uniform protocols. Then my youngest was told he could participate and did not have to change shirts. 

No they have retaliated and removed me from my position without notification and back dated the end date to that of the day the incident took place. I am about to call national and report it. But yes, it is a toxic group of people . It pains me since I have put so much time and effort into the troop and kids for many many years. 

[ThenNow]

15 hours ago, qwazse said:

One of the abuse survivors who took the time to tell us on his story on this forum told us about how his SM was super meticulous… to the point of bringing a ruler to measure patch placement on uniforms. That struck a nerve with me because I had a stickler of an SM when it came to language or bad behavior, but when it came to uniforms, he gave the inspection sheets to the SPL, whose responsibility was to read it and rate us. If my old-school-as-it-got SM was not inserting himself into the nitty-gritty of uniform inspection, nobody’s SM should have been.  It’s now on my list of red flags.

That be me. I'm calling making this connection a "good get" on your part. He was all about him and how things looked and projected on "his Troop." How we presented and performed was a huge part of his identity. As to Mr. Pink Shirt Hater, I say the same. All about how he thinks this "looks" to others who see one of "his" kids wearing a PINK shirt. Pah-lease. "No Scout of mine is going to be caught dead wearing a PINK shirt...!"

[Eagle1993]

3 hours ago, qwazse said:

It is likely that we will soon get a reply to this thread from a member of the troop stating that the situation has been misrepresented, and the actual issues are being handled with discretion by the committee.

 

I wouldn't think a committee should be investigating a YPT report that was submitted to the council.  Other than cooperating with the investigation, a unit committee should not be involved.   If I were CC, I would simply ask the SE if there was any immediate action needed and if not, move on.  

There are times for volunteers to take the lead.  There are times for professionals to lead.  This is a time where volunteers should take a step back and let the professionals run the investigation/actions.  They have the training, experience and any resulting liability to run a proper investigation.  (If they actually do the investigation well .. who knows).

@Cecille25I agree with the recommendation of finding a new Troop.  Unless the current leadership leaves, I don't think your sons will find much peace.  It isn't worth the battle.  That said, I expect you should report the change of your membership status to the SE.  They should be aware of the actions of the committee.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Eagle1993

[T2Eagle]

On 5/20/2022 at 2:39 PM, Eagle1993 said:

I wouldn't think a committee should be investigating a YPT report that was submitted to the council.  Other than cooperating with the investigation, a unit committee should not be involved.   If I were CC, I would simply ask the SE if there was any immediate action needed and if not, move on.  

 

I would add some nuance to that.  My troop may have higher standards than council or BSA.  The CC and COR are the people who recruit, select, and are responsible for troop leadership.  Something that might not be full stop grounds for ending scouting membership might still be grounds for a change or even an ending of the individual's role in the troop. 

Additionally, I would really want to understand in depth any incident that was concerning enough for one of our parents to believe it worthy of reporting to council.  This is the type of thing that make it really important to remember how the chartering model works and how responsible the CO is for what goes on in the unit, irrespective of the views of the umbrella organization.

[InquisitiveScouter]

41 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

I would add some nuance to that.  My troop may have higher standards than council or BSA.  The CC and COR are the people who recruit, select, and are responsible for troop leadership.  Something that might not be full stop grounds for ending scouting membership might still be grounds for a change or even an ending of the individual's role in the troop. 

Additionally, I would really want to understand in depth any incident that was concerning enough for one of our parents to believe it worthy of reporting to council.  This is the type of thing that make it really important to remember how the chartering model works and how responsible the CO is for what goes on in the unit, irrespective of the views of the umbrella organization.

Yes, the Committee may be looking into this because the Scoutmaster (who works for the Committee!) brought the incident to their attention and asked for intervention.  That may be the entire reason the Committee asked to meet with parents and Scouts who were involved... as opposed to anyone "leaking" a report of a YP violation from the council.

The Committee may be approaching this as a Troop disciplinary issue, or even some sort of health and safety concern, versus viewing it through a YP lens.

Unless the OP informed the Committee (or others in the Troop) of the YP Report, the Committee may be completely in the dark about what has been filed at the council or national.

[MYCVAStory]

On 5/20/2022 at 8:42 AM, Eagle1993 said:

... do you know if the youth protection changes from bankruptcy require BSA to include an anti-retaliation policy?  

Short answer: Apparently not.    Long answer: I haven't seen this in writing but that shouldn't be taken to mean that it isn't important or could be part of new YP measures.  I think all parties (TCC and SWG) were focused on creating a structural mechanism for ongoing evaluation and changes.  This was the right tact to take.  If the non-monetary demands were too granular then there would have been an excellent chance that any "laundry list" would have had omissions AND not able to address needed changes in the future.  So, the non-monetary agreements are for a YP Executive and Youth Protection Committee along with a third-party entity that will ALL be responsible for YP evaluation and changes now AND in the future.  Can a non-retaliation policy be put in place then if it's brought to the attention of the YPE and YPC?  Absolutely.

[Cecille25]

8 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Yes, the Committee may be looking into this because the Scoutmaster (who works for the Committee!) brought the incident to their attention and asked for intervention.  That may be the entire reason the Committee asked to meet with parents and Scouts who were involved... as opposed to anyone "leaking" a report of a YP violation from the council.

The Committee may be approaching this as a Troop disciplinary issue, or even some sort of health and safety concern, versus viewing it through a YP lens.

Unless the OP informed the Committee (or others in the Troop) of the YP Report, the Committee may be completely in the dark about what has been filed at the council or national.

The scoutmaster would not have brought it to the committee since he was the issue. I called the CC to inform her of what the scoutmaster was doing so the CC could try and fix the situation. The CC did not the camp masters and camp staff stepped in and corrected the SM.   Then the CC with out the Organization Representative/Exectutive held a meeting with select parents and committee who were not involved to vote on the situation with only the SM/ASM story. Not how its supposed to be done as per National. Conclusion they retaliated against me and booted me out of the committee and blocked me from the web page and Troop FB page with no notice and backdated my membership to the date of the incident not the date of their vote.  All wrong.