What is that knot

[Backpacker]

Bob

 

They are all correct it is an overhand knot. I know a great knot tying training course you can attend, looks like you need a refresher. Maybe we can talk at Jamboree, let me know.

[evmori]

Yup. Overhand knot!

 

 

[acco40]

First, my knowledge of knots is "knot" good.

 

A close-up of the knot on the Scout Badge (not really THE Scout Badge which is all brown) can be found at:

http://www.troop7.org/Ranks/Images/ScoutBadge.gif

 

A close-up of the knot on the Eagle medal can be found at: http://www.sageventure.com/eagle/copy/index.htm

 

Both have that little "lose" end on the upper right side. Not really sure what knot it is but they sure look the same to me.Other Eagle medals are shown too with slightly different knots.

 

 

[Bob White]

I agree the knot on the actual Eagle award looks to be an overhand on a bite. But you need to look at the actual 1st Class Award, not a drawing. It looks different.

[Twocubdad]

I think you're all wrong. Remarkably, I don't believe the knot on the current logo is a real knot at all. A larkshead, Bob, would only have one bite crossing over the front, not two as shown. But as Bob suggested earlier, an overhand knot would leave the two working ends of the rope hanging.

 

Interestingly, looking at my early 1970's-era First and Second Class badges hanging in a shadowbox here on the wall, the two working ends of the rope are clearly shown, dangling to the left side of the knot. The rest of the knot is the same as the current one. I'll bet that over the years some graphic designer with no appreciation for the finer points of knot tying thought they would "clean up" the logo and get rid of the two dangling ends.

 

As to the Eagle knot. On my medal it looks most like a hangman's noose. Actually it isn't a knot either. The wire representing the knot is in a loop which is pulled through the eye of the scroll then twisted back around itself.

[acco40]

Bob, when I look at .gif files of the actual 1st Class Badge (is that what you mean by "the award") and blow it up, the resolution is so bad that I could be looking at a noose for I know.

 

I guess I peruse the handbooks tonight to find out.

 

 

[ManyIrons]

I think TwoCub has keyed in on the most likely answer

 

I was intrigued by this thread when it first appeared but didn't have time to participate. My first reaction was also an overhand knot, but I think TwoCub is on the right trail -- I think we're victims of the artists.

 

As was pointed out by Be_Prepared, the older Scout handbooks do say it is a "simple overhand knot". Specifically the 1948 and 1957 editions contain that wording, but it's gone by the 1968 version.

 

What really caught my eye while leafing through the aforementoned handbooks was how much the design appears to have changed. The knots in the 1948 and 1957 editions have more resemblence to a twisted loop than a knot. The 1968 edition has at least 2 different versions of the knot. Immediately inside the front cover is a graphic showing the knot with 3 wraps around the top of the loop (beneath the ring), while the section discussing the meaning of the badge clearly shows a knot with only 2 wraps - plus the little "loose end" noted by Acco40. If that's not bad enough, the current edition of the handbook has a very clear image of the first class rank badge on page 110 and it sure looks like there's only 1 wrap around the top of the loop. Of course that may be a simplification for the embroidery.

 

If that isn't enough for you, follow the link to the eagle badges that Acco provided (http://www.sageventure.com/eagle/copy/index.htm) and note the difference between the knots on the badge at the top of the page and those at the bottom. The knot on the badge at the top of the page resembles the knot on the first class badge -- well depending which version you look at. However, those at the bottom have 3 wraps around the top of the loop and resemble a noose! So Acco, maybe you were looking at a noose!

 

[Eamonn]

This is the guy who has one of the knots on his uniform on upside down.

Grab a keyring and a rubber band. Feed the band through the hole of the keyring, then put the rubber band through itself. You have a Larks head. It looks flat.

Keep the keyring, find a shoelace /shoestring. Fold the string in half. Feed it through the keyring until both sides are the same length. You have two ends and the loop tie an overhand knot. That is what I think was the idea behind the knot that hangs down.

Of course Bob I will do my best to meet you on that first Wednesday. Heck I will even present you with the CSP,from our Council. That is of course if the lazy little toads ever get around to designing one.

Eamonn

 

[Bob White]

Then can we all agree that there are a varietye of representations and ones opinion of what the knot is could greatly influenced by which version you are seeing?

 

But we all agree that the symbolism is of an overhand knot and for the resons expressed in the handbook.

 

(and you thought I was incapable of compromise!)

[dsteele]

Bob -- I can buy into that!

 

If it were in my power, I'd change the title of this thread to "We all need to get lives!"

 

But I can't. Compromise seems to make the most sense.

 

Unc.

[ManyIrons]

Eamonn - "This is the guy who has one of the knots on his uniform on upside down." Come again??

 

BW - "But we all agree that the symbolism is of an overhand knot and for the resons expressed in the handbook" Amen.

 

Unc - "If it were in my power, I'd change the title of this thread to 'We all need to get lives!'" You mean ouside of Scouting?

[Eamonn]

Coming again!!

Knots are great fum, messing around with rope or string can be a nice way to pass the time. They can be very useful, there are knots used in climbing, sailing, rescuing, pioneering, first aid, butchery, hair dressing,trucking too name but a few places. I have a real hard time explaining how to tie a knot or drawing a knot. I can show you how to tie a knot. But when it comes to pictures it somehow just doesn't register, hence the reference to the uniform knots. All of these have a right and a wrong way and an up and a down. The bad thing about being a District Commissioner is that other people who really do need to get a life expect you to be perfect especially in matters of uniforming. I have a large number of uniform shirts, one has a knot (I'm no longer sure which knot.) that Her Who Must Be Obeyed, sticky ironed and then sewed on upside down. Most people wouldn't even notice, most of those who would notice wouldn't mention it, but I had to have one Unit Commissioner who did.

Eamonn.(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

[kdmill_1]

I still think it's a turn, which is not a knot. (ask any good sailor). Remember, "Do a good turn daily"?

[acco40]

It can be difficult to tell which way to put the square knot insignia on the uniform. The loop of the embroidered square knot that comes in front/top of the standing part (the part to the left as you are looking at it) is to the wearer's right. FOr "pretzel" knots, it is much easier. Now, I admit, that even when armed with this information, knots that are uniform in color (e.g. Webelos Leader Training Award) it is difficult to tell which part is in the front. With knots that use multiple colors, (e.g. Scouters Key) it is easy to see that the green rope should be to the observers left (wearer's right) and the white on the observers right (wearer's left).

 

 

[ManyIrons]

Ouch Eamonn, I think we all (unfortunately) know someone like that. If it were to happen to me I'd probably respond with a cheeky comment such as "looks fine from my perspective" or "Well, no matter how you look at it . . ."