What is that knot

[yarrow]

I was reviewing the scout badge and what each part represents. The knot at the bottom is to remind to do a good turn daily, but what type of knot is it. I originally was told that it was a bowlin but it doesn't look right.

 

yarrow

[Bob White]

It's a Lark's Head.

[Be_Prepared]

Many of the older scout handbooks have the following:

 

The knot at the bottom of the badge - a simple overhand knot - is a reminder that a Scout does a good turn to someone daily

 

or similiar language referencing the overhand knot.

[yarrow]

Thanks. Doesn't look like a lark's head. Good guess though. I found a reference. You are right it is just a simple overhand.

 

http://www.geocities.com/qccbsp/HTML/BSP_Logo.htm

[Bob White]

An overhand knot would require two working ends. This is a loop pulled through a loop on the bottom of the banner. It really is a larks head.

 

While the text may call it an overhand knot, it is in image a larks head.

 

Now if you want a trickier one, what is the knot that hangs from the bottom of the banner on the Eagle Scout medal, because it is not the same knot.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Eamonn]

While I have never really looked at the knot before. I think it is an Overhand Knot tied in a rope that has been looped.

If it was a Larks Head both ends would be hanging down and it would look more even.

Eamonn

[Bob White]

the larks head does not require working ends.

 

You can recreate it with a large rubber band and a ring. Imagine the ring as the loop on the bottom of the banner, The rubber band as the rope.

 

Pass a bend of the rubber band through the ring. now take it under the ring and through the other bend of the rubber band.

 

Pull.

 

The rubber band is now attached to the ring. look at this knot compared to the image of the First Class Badge. They are the same. Its a larks head..really it is. For it to be an overhand knot it would have to have two working ends, it does not, it is a loop anchored to a ring.

[dsteele]

Sorry, Bob, I agree with Eamonn. It's not a larks head. I believe it is an overhand knot created by taking a loop of rope and wrapping it around itself in the manner of an overhand knot.

 

I will accept correction only from a current member of the United States Navy, Coast Guard, or Merchant Marines -- or a veteran of any of those organizations.

 

Of course, I checked the grand scheme of things and the symbolism of the knot is much more important than what kind of knot it is.

 

Unc.

[Bob White]

Oh Ye of little faith.

 

If you try to recreate the knot as you describe, a loop tied in an overhand knot, the collar of the knot (the strand that lays almost parrallel to the banner) would be two strands thick, but the image is only one.

 

The only knot I know of where you can take a loop of line, tie it through a hoop, and only have that collar one strand thick and not two or more is....(drum roll please) ....a larks head. I tried to simulate what both you and Eamonn suggested and I have either an extra rope end or two bends instead of just one.

 

 

Next time we meet we can try to prove it when we can all see the same thing. First Wednesady of Jamboree meet me at the Mahone Area Stage. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

[dsteele]

As long as we're having fun with this, oh yeah of littler faith . . .

 

Bob, I think you need to learn more knots and up your prescription lenses. There are two wraps on the second class knot.

 

It is indeed an overhand knot tied around a loop of rope. It is not a lark's head.

 

Unc.

[Bob White]

That does it painters at ten paces

 

[dsteele]

Alright Mr. Smartypants . . .

 

I'll trump you with a hindu fire escape at 4 paces

 

Unc.

 

[Gags]

Bob mentioned the two working ends in his post above.

 

Please look here: http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=ba

 

It should link to the BSA National site, under the headings "Use of Organization Identity and Program Symbols: Trademark & Signature Artwork".

 

It provides high-quality images for publishing, printing, etc. Take a look at the 2nd Class badge (http://media.scouting.org/identity/CD/PC/BoyScouts/SecondClass4.pcx).

 

Just to the side of the rope hanging down, you see a bump or protrusion on the right. I believe this is the missing "working end" of the rope.

 

Plus it clearly shows the double strands of rope at the front of the knot. If this was a larks head, I believe that in order to have two strands in the front, you'd have to end up with 4 strands hanging down (essentially a double loop on the bottom).

 

Can we get any "geekier" on this Scouting stuff? :-)

 

--Gags

[kdmill_1]

Yeah, what they said...it's a knot. Actually I think it's a "turn."

[Bob White]

I don't know who did those drawings on the web, but take a look at the images in the Boy Scout Handbook they are not the same.