Going by the Book, or Changing to Encourage Participation

[Eagledad]

6 minutes ago, ramanous said:

Boring meetings? Are these Scout led patrols? What Scouting things does the PLC plan for these meetings? If they aren't planning meetings, then that's the primary problem. If they are, then they need be "guided" towards fun activities with positive outcomes.

This is always a chador all troops. How can adults push adventure without running over scout run? One method tried was given the SM an equal share of ideas. Our troop does an annual plan every 6 months after the SPL election. The PLC is basically reviewing the next 6 months and planning the 6 months after. The PLC asks for 3 ideas in 3 categories from each patrol and SM. The categories are monthly theme, camping location, and camping activities (usually coincides with monthly theme, but doesn’t have to). Each PL writes their patrols ideas on on a big sheet of paper on the wall and then they rank their 3 best choices. This is where the adults slide in suggestions of more adventure, or making a boring theme fun like first-aid. 
 

20 minutes ago, ramanous said:

Treat the meetings like short outings. Every outing needs some structure, preferably Scout led (meal times, activities, and that doesn't mean an outing can't have unstructured down-time.)

Great idea. The problem with structure is that it gets stale, predictable and boring. Young adults hate boring. Move a meeting to a different location like a park for some orientating or fire building. Bring ingredients for smores. Bring backpacks and take a mile hike to review packing techniques and weight. Hotdogs? Just figure out ways to change it up. Teach the scouts how to be spontaneous by bringing a local fire truck to the meeting. A few minutes of fire safety?  I don’t know, make it fun. 
 

Barry

 

[MattR]

Coming up with a fun and purposeful meeting every week is a challenge for anyone. Just my opinion but this is a big part of the BSA's problem. If youth don't look forward to being at the meetings then they won't go on the campouts and it's over. The meetings don't have to be fantastic but there are easier ways to be bored.

As for the scouts leaving, I'd talk to them and try to fix it, especially during the summer when everything can be outdoors.

[elitts]

44 minutes ago, MattR said:

Coming up with a fun and purposeful meeting every week is a challenge for anyone. Just my opinion but this is a big part of the BSA's problem. If youth don't look forward to being at the meetings then they won't go on the campouts and it's over. The meetings don't have to be fantastic but there are easier ways to be bored.

As for the scouts leaving, I'd talk to them and try to fix it, especially during the summer when everything can be outdoors.

One of the reasons why I keep reminding our scouts to end every meeting with 30-40 minutes of a game.

I've even been tempted to build a snack into the troop budget for the end of meetings.  I know getting a treat of some kind does great things for making meetings better in the working world, no reason why it wouldn't work for kids.

[Eagledad]

4 minutes ago, elitts said:

One of the reasons why I keep reminding our scouts to end every meeting with 30-40 minutes of a game.

I've even been tempted to build a snack into the troop budget for the end of meetings.  I know getting a treat of some kind does great things for making meetings better in the working world, no reason why it wouldn't work for kids.

First year I was Cubmaster I asked a den of Webelos why they chose the troop they were just about to cross over to. They said That troop had the best game at the meeting. A treat would be even better.😀

Barry

[yknot]

2 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

IMO, this could be a good experiment, with failure allowed, of the Leadership Method. One patrol prepares for a campout, another wings it or a mystery destination where lack of preparation leads to lost fun opportunities...oh there was a beach?

I think this is part of the scouting mindset problem that could use an update. Kids today do not need to spend hours in meetings to organize anything. They can do almost everything via text, email or online. This is how they pretty much organize school projects and most everything else in their lives now. They can collect money via Venmo or whatever. Meetings have become too much talking and ceremony and it's still not enjoyable even if it's outside around a campfire. 

[yknot]

46 minutes ago, elitts said:

I've even been tempted to build a snack into the troop budget for the end of meetings.  I know getting a treat of some kind does great things for making meetings better in the working world, no reason why it wouldn't work for kids.

They do love food but a lot of places will not allow you to have food. We can't have food items in any of our meeting locations -- we use a couple churches and a couple schools -- except a park campfire ring. Also, trying to do snacks in units with a lot of food issues is getting difficult. 

 

[Eagle1993]

1 hour ago, ramanous said:

Boring meetings? Are these Scout led patrols? What Scouting things does the PLC plan for these meetings? If they aren't planning meetings, then that's the primary problem. If they are, then they need be "guided" towards fun activities with positive outcomes. If your patrols and troop aren't planning meetings, then the clique in charge (Scouts or Scouters) is winging it which can result in the appearance of favoritism and alienation... hardly the outcomes we want reinforced. 

In this Troop they are.  They have the SPL, ASPL at the head table.  Patrols then site at tables.  Then they work on advancement at their tables from planning outings to advancement.  

I think BSA needs to relook at the program given what youth need today.  That is tough as it varies a lot by income and location.  However, if I were to simplify BSA methods I would:

Prioritize

#1 Outdoors - I think outdoors makes BSA a bit unique and can be fun.  Downside is that some scouts more focused on STEM (which are a lot) would likely drop.

#2 Patrols - Again, unique to BSA and a key aspect of following methods.

#3 Ideals - Scout Oath & Law is key and should be taught and practiced by all.  

#4 Leadership - We need leaders in our country ... I see far too many willing to follow and not lead.  BSA has a great history in developing leaders.

It typically isn't hard to say what is important.  What is hard is to say what one would focus less on.  So, I think BSA should De-prioritize:

De-Prioritize 

#1 Uniform - Honestly, I would be fine if we just went to a neckerchief.  Show up in what is appropriate.  A suit for a formal occasion.  Work shirt and jeans.  Etc.  Just have that neckerchief and lets go!

#2 Advancement - Eliminate all ranks except Eagle.  Less focus on Eagle as closing out a checklist of activities vs an indication of top scouts.  Let Scoutmasters decide who their Eagle scouts are based upon Scout's accomplishments over time.  Other ranks ... end.  You learn scouting skills, but no need to advertise a rank.  Scout leaders can assign tasks & roles based on your skill.  Merit badges are fine, but reduced focus. 

#3 Adult Association - I think we actually have too much adult association right now.  Yes, keep scoutmaster conferences and adults involved in the program.  However, if we make the mistake ... make it with less adult association as many kids today have too much (helicopter parents, etc.).

#4 Personal Growth - I think this will happen anyway.  

[RememberSchiff]

19 minutes ago, yknot said:

I think this is part of the scouting mindset problem that could use an update. Kids today do not need to spend hours in meetings to organize anything. They can do almost everything via text, email or online. This is how they pretty much organize school projects and most everything else in their lives now. They can collect money via Venmo or whatever. Meetings have become too much talking and ceremony and it's still not enjoyable even if it's outside around a campfire. 

Yes but that is not the Scouting Leadership method where the SPL comes around to patrols and advises, checks,...

Patrols did their meetings online during covid and some of their assumptions of the way things are were apart from reality.

That said, leader styles are dynamic. What may work for one patrol may not work for another. Let them experiment, fail, team-build, fix, succeed.

My $0.02,

P.S. I am a ASM, yep Anti-Snacks-at-Meetings - my den meetings, pack meetings, trooping meetings,...

Edited June 15, 2022 by RememberSchiff

[Eagle1993]

1 hour ago, MattR said:

Coming up with a fun and purposeful meeting every week is a challenge for anyone. Just my opinion but this is a big part of the BSA's problem. If youth don't look forward to being at the meetings then they won't go on the campouts and it's over. The meetings don't have to be fantastic but there are easier ways to be bored.

I've mentioned NICA (Mountain Bike Youth Race League) in the past.   In their coaches training, they emphasized how to coach skills and how not to coach skills.  They showed a picture of a bunch of youth sitting in a group looking bored out of their minds.  That was under the how not to coach a skill.  That picture (of the bored youth) could be taken at many summer camp merit badge sessions I have seen over the last several years.

BSA seems to be, in practice, doing exactly what other organizations are saying what not to do.  Why should we be surprised to see our numbers falling. 

[fred8033]

2 hours ago, qwazse said:

Question no longer, take a quote from this stranger on the internet and be certain:

First class first year is a lie. The skills therein are difficult to master.

I have seen classes of scouts get to Eagle no sooner if they earn 1st class early.

Argument is beating a dead horse argument that has been done over and over.  

First-class-first-year is about planning.  Troop planning / structure should support an active involved scout being able to get to first class in first year.  It doesn't mean the scouts have to get there. 

It's a reflection that the troop program should be planned to enable a driven motivated scout to achieve it.

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

 

De-Prioritize 

#1 Uniform - Honestly, I would be fine if we just went to a neckerchief.  Show up in what is appropriate.  A suit for a formal occasion.  Work shirt and jeans.  Etc.  Just have that neckerchief and lets go!

I believe Uniform and disciplining bad behavior are the two most challenging parts of a scout run program for adults. Adults seem to have an unbalanced passion for these two cases and typically takeover the scouts responsibility to get what they want. I certainly don't agree that the uniform is a main reason a scout doesn't want to go to meetings in a healthy program. 

The uniform is a great character builder because it clearly defines a scout's right or wrong choice. It also challenges them to define when the uniform should be worn appropriately.

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

#2 Advancement - Eliminate all ranks except Eagle.  Less focus on Eagle as closing out a checklist of activities vs an indication of top scouts.  Let Scoutmasters decide who their Eagle scouts are based upon Scout's accomplishments over time.  Other ranks ... end.  You learn scouting skills, but no need to advertise a rank.  Scout leaders can assign tasks & roles based on your skill.  Merit badges are fine, but reduced focus. 

Youth today live in a world of mediocrity and don't know how to find the best of themselves. I'm not a fan of how advancement has been used by adults to push their ideal program, but advancement is a method for a scout to learn about their capabilities, while not fearing the differences of others. Every rank should be worn with pride. And it challenges the group to respect each other fairly as the Oath and Law defines. 

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

 

#3 Adult Association - I think we actually have too much adult association right now.  Yes, keep scoutmaster conferences and adults involved in the program.  However, if we make the mistake ... make it with less adult association as many kids today have too much (helicopter parents, etc.).

I very much agree. This goes back to what I said about adults impressing their opinion on the scouts when they want it their way.  And, I found that a troop where the scouts deal directly with bad behavior has a lot less bad behavior. Many adults think bad behavior is only an adult responsibility, and don't realize they are leaving the scouts dealing it without tools to stop it. Dealing with bad behavior is a challenge for even the adults, so if the program gives everyone the responsibility to confront and deal with it, then the behavior is usually nipped in the bud.

But, I admit giving scouts the freedom to learn from their mistakes takes practice, and the humility that adults may do it wrong more than the scouts.

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

 

#4 Personal Growth - I think this will happen anyway.  

Yes, the scouts will gain personal growth, but what does that mean. I once watched a troop scouts bully another troop during the camp volley ball terminate tournament. I watched the scoutmaster smile with his approval with every bad action. What kind of personal growth were those scouts getting.

Adults don't have to be the wisdom of personal growth if they just teach the scouts to grade their decisions on the oath and law. Oh, we don't have to preach and preach oath and law, but it we start balancing the choices being made by the oath and law, the scouts will eventually get it. They don't talk about it, but they do learn to balance their decisions.

Barry

Edited June 15, 2022 by elitts
fixing autocorrect blooper

[Eagle94-A1]

45 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

First-class-first-year is about planning.  Troop planning / structure should support an active involved scout being able to get to first class in first year.  It doesn't mean the scouts have to get there. 

It's a reflection that the troop program should be planned to enable a driven motivated scout to achieve it.

You are correct, the program should support a motivated Scout to get First Class in a year, and it doesn't mean they have to get there. Lord Baden-Powell said it best, "Advancement is like a suntan, it just happens in the outdoors."

The reality is that EVERYTHING (major emphasis), that BSA has put out since August 1989: handbooks, training syllabi, roundtable topics, ad nauseum, has promoted First Class, First Year. Heck even the 1989 report on why  National implemented "Operation First Class" as it was then called, ignored program, and focused on advancement. I believe I have lost potential transfer Scouts because when I talked to them, their parents, and their Scouters, I talk about how we are focused on fun and adventure, and not advancement. They seem to be advancement focused, and I blame National for this.

[elitts]

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

De-Prioritize 

#1 Uniform - Honestly, I would be fine if we just went to a neckerchief.  Show up in what is appropriate.  A suit for a formal occasion.  Work shirt and jeans.  Etc.  Just have that neckerchief and lets go!

#2 Advancement - Eliminate all ranks except Eagle.  Less focus on Eagle as closing out a checklist of activities vs an indication of top scouts.  Let Scoutmasters decide who their Eagle scouts are based upon Scout's accomplishments over time.  Other ranks ... end.  You learn scouting skills, but no need to advertise a rank.  Scout leaders can assign tasks & roles based on your skill.  Merit badges are fine, but reduced focus. 

#3 Adult Association - I think we actually have too much adult association right now.  Yes, keep scoutmaster conferences and adults involved in the program.  However, if we make the mistake ... make it with less adult association as many kids today have too much (helicopter parents, etc.).

 

#1:  I agree generally.  I'd feel differently if the uniform shirt didn't suck.  When they start making it out of synthetics with 3%-5% lycra and have someone do the measurements that has a brain, I might start feeling differently.

#2: I think Ranks serve a purpose of breaking up the progress to Eagle into manageable steps.  But if I were in charge, I'd probably get rid of "Scout and Second Class".    Make Tenderfoot requirements the basic safety components and 1st class all the basic camping, first aid and other skills.  But I'd keep Star and Life and I'd probably add in more stringent "participation" type requirements so you don't get scouts getting to 1st class, then completing Star Life and Eagle without actually participating in troop activities during their last 2-3 years.

3:  I agree about the Adult (over)Association.  Need to get rid of NSP so we don't have scouts get used to being shepherded by an adult.  AND BSA needs to be far more explicit about what the ideal camping situation is.  ie:  if every adult can see and hear everything going on in the youth campsite, they are too close.  That "300-feet between patrols and adults" gets overlooked in a big way.  I realize that that isn't always going to be possible in some camping situations, but the fact that that's the ideal needs to be far more prominent so that adults GET that they aren't supposed to be a constant presence in the scout campsite.

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

P.S. I am a ASM, yep Anti-Snacks-at-Meetings - my den meetings, pack meetings, trooping meetings,...

I'm dead set against snacks during meetings, it completely disrupts everything else going on.  But as the last thing before post-meeting socialization, it's a great tool.  Particularly in Cubs, I used it as a gentle incentive for patrol participation, wearing the uniform correctly (keep it tucked in) and as completely as possible and as a prize for activities.

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by elitts

[Eagle94-A1]

Regarding snacks and food, they can serve a purpose. I have seen cooking demos and cook offs during meetings, especially for backpacking instruction. As a Cub Scout DL, the last meeting of the year was a party with me making cookies in a cardboard box oven.

[MattR]

Any of the methods, if done right, are fine. The problem is there are so many that everyone gets lost in the weeds and can't see the forest.

I'd replace woodbadge with a 5 day class on creating fun games with a purpose. It's not even my idea. It's how Green Bar Bill did it. It's why I insisted on games at meetings and why our camporees were popular. Creating good games is not a difficult idea but it's hard to do and requires a lot of useful skills and imagination.